1up: Tomonobu Itagaki's First Post-Tecmo Interview

It was a comfortable day in Tokyo when I found myself prowling the quiet campus neighborhood of Waseda University, the school that produced former Team Ninja boss, Tomonobu Itagaki, who recently parted ways with Team Ninja and parent company, Tecmo. Obviously, to say "parted ways" is to put it nicely, as Itagaki not only recently handed in his resignation, but took the publisher to court for unpaid bonuses and broken promises. While litigation is great and all that, we're more concerned with what Itagaki's doing with himself now that he's cut ties with the team he made famous with games like Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden. In this, his first interview since going underground, we literally talked with him underground, in a small but well-appointed bar in the area of his alma mater. In our chat Itagaki opens up to us about a number of topics, such as the stagnating (or not) state of Japanese game development, what Western developers do better than Japanese developers, what Japanese developers do better than Western developers, and how he feels about other action games. He also offers up a hell of a lot of analogies about World War II fighter pilots. It might have had to do with Itagaki being drunk.

Tomonobu Itagaki: So, what are you doing here?

1UP: I know you like to hang around here because of your alma mater at Waseda University, so I thought I would check in and see if you were here. And look, I found you! What a coincidence.

TI: Yeah, I don't know if that means you're lucky or unlucky.

1UP: I'll deal. So, I wanted to ask you a couple questions. You know, Japanese game development hasn't been in such good shape these days. Only the top-tier teams, you know, the very, very top tier team seem to be able to produce cutting-edge projects. While the bottom 80 percent of Japanese development seems to have to continue to put out 2D, sprite-based, turn-based RPGs for next-gen systems that look like they could run on PS1. Or they have to do downloadable content only. What do you think about the state of Japanese development?

TI: Yeah, since I've had a lot of freetime recently, I kind of I thought I would stop by and see what was going on at my alma mater, have a few drinks...I'm glad I bumped into you, but now you're asking me some pretty deep stuff all the sudden. I'm kind of drunk right now, so I'll speak my mind, but I think that the overall theme is just kind of the passage of time, right? As time passes, things change. Obviously, there's a lot of times to why that happened. Yeah, I think I'll be speaking a lot in metaphors. I hope you don't mind that.

You look at, for instance, back in World War II. You had aerial dogfight battle with 600 planes on each side. And then, as we got into say the Korean War, and now it's say maybe 50 or 60. And in modern times, with modern jet planes, you only need one or two to fight a battle. So you certainly see a progression like that. So, I do look on it as someone who likes fighter planes and thinks that they're really cool. The fact that fighter planes themselves have dwindled in number is certainly something that is somewhat regretful. But I still like fighter planes, and I think they're the coolest type of plane there is

One thing I will say is that, definitely, you have to have at least some fighter planes. Any country that doesn't have fighter planes is destined to be extinct. In that metaphor, I think that game companies that aren't able to do high-end development, or don't have developers who can work on high-end hardware are destined to ultimately be obsolete in the market. Make sense?

1UP: Yeah. I imagine a lot of this has to do with arcades dwindling because Japanese hardware manufacturers like Sega, with their Model 2 and Model 3 boards, used to set the precedent for visual quality in games. Even during the 32-bit era, Japanese game developers were still dominant, but nothing could still approach the level of the Model 3 hardware. But once the Xbox and Playstation 2 came out, or even the Dreamcast, things started to tilt in favor of many western developers. Because PC developers moved over, the genres that are popular in the US -- first-person shooters, etc. -- suddenly came to even greater prominence because companies like Epic could suddenly make console games. And so could Bioware with K.O.T.O.R. and whatnot. So western gaming has not only caught on and caught up, but has surpassed Japanese gaming in many ways. Bioware RPGs are much more progressive than standard the Japanese RPG formula. How do you feel about the rise of western gaming?

TI: Well first of all, I think that you're a little bit confused with the differences in some of the markets. Because, for instance, the arcade market in Japan and the arcade market in the US are two different animals. Just like the arcade market in the US and the PC market which kind of originated gaming to begin with in the US are two different things. So I think we have to make that clear to start with. So, I would offer that the difference in the technical strength and ability of America and Japan to make good games respectively is not directly connected with the differences in those markets, as you stated. It is important to note here that the way the Japanese arcades are set up, at least back during the time when they were at their peak, was a kind of unique setup where the companies that made the games also owned the arcades. So they developed games to put in their arcades which they also owned to bring in customers.

So you would have companies who would make a game, then they would sell it to one of their subsidiaries who was in charge of running the arcades that have that company's name on them, and then they would bring in customers to play that game, then the proceeds would go back to the parent company who would then use that to make more arcade games. So it was like this closed money-generating loop, if you will. So game companies back in the heyday of the arcades had three responsibilities. One was to make compelling arcades. Two was to make sure that they built arcades in places like near train stations or near universities where they would be profitable. And three was making sure that they kept customers coming back and got the funds they needed to make new games. So this was a very closed-loop system that existed in Japan. So in the US, back in the heyday of arcades, you had a very different business model where you had people who basically just built an arcade, bought boards, you know -- arcade machines from Japan -- and just used that to make money period. So it's much different from the system that was within Japan.

One thing that doesn't require me to explain much is the fact that Japan was the originator of the arcade game so to speak, you know, America was the originator of the PC game. And that's really where the tradition of playing electronic games in America really originated from. So the downfall of the arcades in Japan was precipitated by the fact that one of the key elements of this closed loop, mainly, getting customers into the arcades, basically dissolved. You found that Japanese people, the way they entertain themselves changed, they no longer got off the train and went to the local arcade and put a bunch of 100 yen coins into the machines there. So then what you will see happen then, of course, is that the income has now dropped. So, the company that's in charge of making the software will say, "Why don't we have more income?" And the company that's in charge of running the arcades will say, "Why don't you make something that will bring in more customers?" And they'll start in-fighting amongst themselves, and that kind of precipitated the collapse of the arcade industry here in Japan.

So then what we saw is, of course, companies were not able to develop new hardware boards and new software. That started the reliance on console gaming that we have today. And that fed back into American arcades because when Japanese companies stopped making new boards and new product, American arcades had less to put out on their floor. So that was one of the reasons that arcades declined in America. The other being that, we went through a period where because of rising crime and safety concerns, parents didn't want their kids going out to these arcades alone or at night. And I think that these two factors contributed to the decline of arcades in the US.

1UP: But in terms of innovation and like, you know, arcades were symptomatic of one element was that, that was like, okay, the former superpowers, let's say like, Sega and Namco. Sega had a much harder time adjusting, because they thought they could just port the arcade experience to console and that would be enough. But arcade games were designed for short, ten, fifteen, minute plays at best, five minutes even. Whereas Namco focused more on like expanding the content in the games to give more lasting power at home. So that was kind of like the first symptom. But then, other things like, even with Square Enix, their RPGs -- as high production values as they contain -- it almost feels like the same game with a new coat of pain, so to speak. And it just gets worse from there on down. Whereas, as like I said, companies like Bioware and PC companies like former PC developers that have made the jump to consoles, seem to be taking every chance they can to reinvent genres.

TI: Yeah, I understand that's the core of what you're trying to say, but once again, it's important to note that Japanese arcade games, American arcade games, American PC games, then American and Japanese console games...these are all different markets with different business models. So just a recap, I mean, the reason why the Japanese arcade games that had been pushing the envelope in terms of making improvements in hardware and software stopped their innovation was because, like I said earlier, people stopped coming to arcades, they stopped leaving their trades and going and spending their money there. A lot of people started driving cars here and there. It was all based on this system of belief, right? Where the hardware and software arm of the company would say, "if we make this great game, people will come and play it." The customers who thought, "Here's a great game. I bet they'll make another great game after this one, so I'm going to keep coming to this arcade." And as soon as they stopped doing that, that whole kind of trust loop, if you will, collapsed, and that lead to the lack of innovation, and that's why all the publishers started focusing on consoles.

So, I mean, obviously I'm not just a drunk. I know how these things work. Even look at my career and you'll see that I responded to this change by changing my focus from arcades to home consoles.

1UP: So let me ask you this. At one point, you mentioned that you were very proud of Hideo Kojima and the work he was doing on Metal Gear Solid 4. You said that it was important that there were other strong Japanese leaders and developers in this industry. Can you elaborate on that for me?

TI: Yeah I really had two major meanings to that statement. One, is just like you said, as a fighter pilot, I recognize that there are fewer and fewer fighter pilots here right now, and that certainly has a lot to do with it. The other is, just as I realized when the time is right to move away from mainly working in arcade games to working on console games, I think, in order to be a successful fighter pilot, you have to realize when it's time to change course and try a different strategy. If you keep flying straight, you're going to get shot down right away. I think Kojima has that same ability, and that's why I consider him a fellow fighter pilot.

1UP: If you had to think of a specific way in which western development has actually surpassed Japanese development, or what western developers are better at perceiving in terms of their audience, what would it be?

TI: This is kind of jumping forward in the progression of my thoughts, but I would just say that what happened, as a result of everything I've been talking about, is console game machines gradually developed into machines that were based off PC hardware. And so I think we saw in a difference in development where we had western developers who were all about standards and specific...how can I put this...equal types of technology and formulas and standardization, and really kind of focusing on that. And then you had Japanese developers who were still treating everything as a step-by-step process where they did everything themselves, and that's where I think you saw a manufacturing process where they did everything themselves.

1UP: In terms of hardware, you know, one hardware that obviously isn't just like a super powered PC is the very architecturally complex Playstation 3. And, do you think, in almost ironic fashion, that the PS3 and its complicated hardware has widened the gap between top-tier development teams and the smaller development teams with fewer resources? Meaning, do you think that the complexity of the hardware has actually made it harder for most medium-to-smaller Japanese development teams to keep to keep pace with, say, what western developers are doing on the Xbox 360?

TI: First of all, I think that the PS3 was kind of an attempt by Kutaragi-san to create a uniquely Japanese computer to take on the Wintel standard. And I think that Kutaragi-san was very much a fighter pilot in the hardware realm just as I was a fighter pilot in the software realm, and in that sense I have a lot of respect for him. To me, having a fighter that's easy to pilot and as powerful, makes it easy to win. And that's my main goal, and that's why I choose to pilot a 360. One more thing I would add to that is that I don't think that developing for the PS3 is hard at all. It was much harder developing for the Famicom. Yeah, I mean, give someone who's developing for the PS3 a Famicom and see if they can make a game for it. They won't be able to. Yeah, that'll prove it. We'll bet a drink on it.

1UP: What was so hard about developing on the Famicom?

TI: Yeah, I'm under NDA, so I can't really talk about it. [Laughs] No, it's just that there's a lot of things these days that the young guys don't know about.

1UP: Okay, what advice would you give to the average Japanese development team? Not the ones that are already riding the technological edge -- like Kojima Productions, Square Enix and Capcom -- but the ones that are in that 75 percent and under percentile, struggling to keep pace with today's advancing game design. What advice would you give them to try and improve?

TI: Don't take off. Don't take off from the ground. You'll just be shot down.

1UP: Are you saying like, don't try? Or are you saying just, keep your feet on the ground?

TI: I mean I think it's part of both. In honest answer to your question, what do you say to a fighter pilot who can't even be part of the top 15-20 percent? You tell them "Don't even take off because you'll just get shot down." I mean, if I was to give one piece of constructive advice, it would be that, whether you get shot down or not is also luck. And the more times you take off from your carrier and do a sortie and come back, the more likely you are to get shot down, right? But if you have the courage not to be afraid of that, then you should give it a shot.

1UP: How do you feel, in relation to that, about the fact that innovation seems rewarded less frequently than sequel-itis. Of course there's exceptions like Wii Fit and Brain Training. But a lot of the times it seems like maybe a game like Okami will only sell 4,000 copies here [in Japan] while everybody else continues to buy Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Monster Hunter. How do you feel about about the Japanese consumer who plays it too safe?

TI: Yeah, I don't think things are quite as simple as you potray them. My daughter tried playing Okami, and she got pretty sick of it pretty quickly, and I got pretty sick of it too. And I'm not out to make this an Okami-bashing session or anything, I mean I'm just saying that it didn't feel like it had much of a spirit. It felt like they were flying just because they wanted to fly and not because they wanted to take down any enemy ships. You know, I was just basically saying that I don't think that Okami is that great of a fighter plane, that's all. I mean, I do have a lot of thoughts about game consumers in both Japan and the US. Yeah, Okami did the A-to-B stuff, it was like "now we can take off and land on water," but it's actual abilities as a fighter planes weren't that great. It's unique, but it's not a powerful fighter plane.

1UP: Ironically, during an interview I did with [Okami director Hideki] Kamiya, he said that he never played Ninja Gaiden, because it didn't interest him in the least. He described it by saying "You know how when you see a movie trailer, and you decide whether or not it interests you then and there? Well, Ninja Gaiden never caught my interest, so I never played them." This was when I was asking him why he thought no action games had risen to the challenge of surpassing the original Devil May Cry in the last six years.

TI: Yeah, I don't really think that's a fair stance to be coming from. I mean, I make it a point of commenting on something after I've played a game. I mean, I've played Tekkens 1 to 5. I don't remember which was which, but I know I've played them all. Can you elaborate on what Kamiya said?

1UP: He said that in the years since he laid the groundwork for the modern 3D action game with the original Devil May Cry, nobody's done anything to push the genre forward, which he's very disappointed in. And that includes the followups to the original Devil May Cry, and pretty much every other action game since then, whether it's Shinobi, or Otogi, or even anything you've been involved in. The only action game series he seems to have any respect for is God of War.

TI: Was he asleep for eight years?

1UP: Probably not.

TI: I just wanted to let your readers know that there are two types of people out there who like to make big comments. There's those that truly are outspoken, and there are those who are just trying to cover up for their weaknesses. We have a saying here in Japan which is that "the weaker dog barks more," and I sincerely hope that he is not one of the latter. Also, I would also just like to remind [Kamiya] to make sure to stay awake for the next eight years.

1UP: you've been talking about planes a lot, what's your favorite fighter plane?

TI: The Zero.

1UP: Any particular model?

TI: The Zero fighter. Mitsubishi? Yeah, Mitsubishi manufactured, World War II. The Zero 21. The other one I like is the US P-51 Mustang. It's a beautiful design.

1UP: Those are classic planes. Can I deviate from the regular line of questioning? What are you doing nowadays? What are you doing to keep yourself busy?

TI: I've been taking pictures, working on my model trains, drinking of course, gambling. That's what things have been like lately.

1UP: Do you see yourself getting back into gaming soon, or are you taking some time off to recharge?

TI: Hey, you know me, I'm not just going to sit back. No, I'm definitely going to make something very soon.

1UP: Yeah...

TI: Yes, the great wide expanse of the skies await...

1UP: Yeah? What do you think are the limits of the current generation? Is there anything that can hold you back? If so, what would it be?

TI: I mean, the best machine is the best, and that's what I wanna work on. That's it

1UP: Do you think there's plenty more, I guess, juice to squeeze out of the current generation?

TI: Even there were, it's not to the extent that it would affect the outcome of the battle. I think that what's the most important thing right now is not just the power of the machine, per sé, it's the ability to make things that are witty and are compelling. And I think that's what's going to determine success. You know, I'm thankful that people would call my games innovative, and that's really what I'm focusing on.

1UP: When you are designing a game, do you consciously consider the western or international market. Or do you concentrate solely on making a game that you wanna make, and let the chips fall where they may?

TI: [Itagaki laughs drunkenly for around a full minute]

1UP: It's the theme of what I've been asking all the developers on this trip.

TI: Yeah I mean, if you're going to make something just because you want to, you should just make it as a hobby project on your PC, and just show it to your girlfriend, your wife, your kids, whatever. On the other hand, you know, developing a game specifically for a certain target market is also something that gives me pause. My games up to this point have done extremely well in America, so it might look like I'm making them for Americans, but that's not true, I'm making them for human beings in general. Okay, so tell me a country that you think consists of people that have mostly never played video games.

1UP: Uh. Cameroon?

TI: So if you took my games to Cameroon I think they would be incredibly popular. You know, I make games based on key themes of human existence. The worst thing you can do when you're fighting a battle like this is to make something that only targets a specific type of person. I don't wanna be misunderstood, so I want to say that doesn't mean that you should ignore your fanbase. You just shouldn't count on them too much.

1UP: So when are you coming back to gaming?

TI: I'm normally someone who always keeps my promises, and you may have heard in previous interviews that I was going to announce something in July, and I was originally intending at that time to announce a journey to new pastures, if you will. And there's have been a lot of events that have forced me to push that back a bit, and for that I apologize to all the fans. I know there are a lot of fans who might be upset or confused, but I this is something that I had to do. So enough of that. I'll just say that the great wide open sky is waiting for me, and I will return to it, and I hope everyone is looking forward to what I do next. I want you to remember what I said earlier in this interview which is, I'm never gonna let my plane take off unless I'm sure that I'm going to win the fight.