Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?

Anything to do with games at all.

Are videogames, in general, sexist?

Yes
35
54%
No
6
9%
They used to be
4
6%
There's a gender imbalance, but it's not sexism
16
25%
Games are sexist against men
4
6%
 
Total votes: 65
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PostRe: Are videogames sexist?
by That » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:43 pm

Jenuall, I'm not suggesting you're doing anything wrong, particularly with respect to parenting(!). Your idea of the world - that we should be broadly egalitarian while being sympathetic to the unique needs of individuals and demographics - is great from my perspective. I just disagree that you can define those concepts meaningfully without a cultural reference point.

I'm sorry if I get the details a little wrong, but I think the crux of this is correct: I read an article recently suggesting that in Japan, the transgender community is fighting to maintain their status as a mental health disorder as that framework gives them liberties, recognition, and acceptance that they wouldn't have without the legitimisation that comes from their diagnosis. In the West, many transgender people find the idea that they have a mental health disorder deeply offensive, and there is broad consensus that things would be better if we moved past that idea and those systems & terminology. In both cases you have primarily liberal people in a minority group pushing for equality - in the sense that they want their lives to be as straightforward and pleasant as possible - by asking for the exact opposite treatment, because of the cultural context of the nations in which they live. Neither is objectively right or wrong. (My apologies again if I butchered the story a little bit; I'm half-remembering so the details may actually be a little different, but it's a functional illustration in any case.)

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PostRe: Are videogames sexist?
by skarmachild » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:24 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
skarmachild wrote:I played all of the Tomb Raider reboot and genuinely can't remember any instance of LC being sexualised at all (i mean, if you felt that way i dunno man, that's pretty strawberry floated up considering the tone of the game) , at least not in the way she was in her PSX days in advertisements. And that was all some big joke cause they made her boobies too big and stuck with it.




And yes, I know he's a comedian and yes I know he's emphasising these things for comic effect but look at that footage. Her ass is front and centre, she's wearing a skimpy top and her body is leered over by the camera to no end (that crawling sequence!).

As for the rest of your comments, I don't think there's anything there worth responding to in all honesty. Your thoughts seem to be a list of excuses as to why games are sexist (because they're developed by men, because Japan, what's wrong with looking at sexy people) which I suppose actually supports my argument that they are so, thanks?


Yeah your probably right, im not a fan of getting into these discussions and it's hard for me to make good arguments. The whole 'because Japan' thing... has some merit. It doesnt excuse it, but like, theres so much weirdo Japanese anime and manga that 'because Japan' is just easier than actually trying to analyze and understand the appeal of tentacle rape or naked cartoon chicks. I wasn't trying to list 'excuses' but rather 'why they do it'. Which is ironic cause all the people I see on Twitter that speak up against this are usually huge anime fans and/or furries (so my thinking is sexy people are bad, but sexy animals are good? (YES THIS IS MY ARGUMENT))

I mean, if I played that entire game without thinking how Lara is sexualized - then is it the viewer who sees (the crawling sequence e.g) it the one that is sexist? Cause if you see her crawling through a river of blood and all you can focus on is dat ass then idk man... that's what im saying. Im not exactly good at making coherent sentances or sence but I think my opinions are somewhat valid. (the things that stood out to me in that game were her breaking down over killing a deer, climbing to the top of that tower and spikes going through her neck on the water slide).

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Gemini73 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:40 pm

"spikes going through her neck on the water slide"

Slightly off topic, but what made me chuckle about Tomb Raider was how all those sudden, gruesome deaths were pretty much unavoidable first time around. It was if the devs were like "yeah man, check out how many different gruesome ways we can bump off Lara!" /maniacal laugh

Back on topic, I didn't take much notice of Lara's ass.

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PostRe: Are videogames sexist?
by Jenuall » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:18 pm

Karl wrote:Jenuall, I'm not suggesting you're doing anything wrong, particularly with respect to parenting(!). Your idea of the world - that we should be broadly egalitarian while being sympathetic to the unique needs of individuals and demographics - is great from my perspective. I just disagree that you can define those concepts meaningfully without a cultural reference point.

I'm sorry if I get the details a little wrong, but I think the crux of this is correct: I read an article recently suggesting that in Japan, the transgender community is fighting to maintain their status as a mental health disorder as that framework gives them liberties, recognition, and acceptance that they wouldn't have without the legitimisation that comes from their diagnosis. In the West, many transgender people find the idea that they have a mental health disorder deeply offensive, and there is broad consensus that things would be better if we moved past that idea and those systems & terminology. In both cases you have primarily liberal people in a minority group pushing for equality - in the sense that they want their lives to be as straightforward and pleasant as possible - by asking for the exact opposite treatment, because of the cultural context of the nations in which they live. Neither is objectively right or wrong. (My apologies again if I butchered the story a little bit; I'm half-remembering so the details may actually be a little different, but it's a functional illustration in any case.)


I guess it's probably a flawed perspective that I've taken in assuming some kind of "inherent truth" in what these concepts ultimately mean, but I do still feel that on some level this should be true - I guess for us to ever see such a reality would need global culture to become fairly homogenised which not necessarily be a desirable thing in itself! But yes I agree that ultimately what exists at any one point in time is a spectrum of what qualifies as sexist, objectifying, misogynist etc. within the current cultural context.

The example of the Japanese transgender community is an interesting one, because whilst I would never want to condemn that community for taking the approach they have - as you say ultimately they see it was their only way of maintaining their recognition and acceptance, but it feels like a classic case of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Potentially they are putting their "cause" (not a great turn of phrase I admit, but it fits in this context) further back rather than forward as the goal should be to arrive at that level of acceptance without the need for a medical banner under which to receive protection. Similarly other nations could be persuaded by this situation to adopt such policies and approaches with respect to the transgender community (I doubt this is likely but it's not a ludicrous leap). Like I say - it's not my place to condemn their actions, and I have no suitable reference for their suffering - if I were in a similar situation it's entirely possible I would reach for the more achievable goal that promised a degree of protection, albeit under somewhat false pretences, rather than push through further suffering in the hope of some "real" acceptance which I may or may not ever see achieved.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Preezy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:02 pm

I would legit bang Miranda from Mass Effect. Dang :datass:

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by captain red dog » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:28 pm

I wouldn't say it is sexist as such, rather the games are tailored to the most lucrative parts of the market. So whilst women apparently make up 50% of gamers, I'd wager that men would generally spend the most money on games.

As women have got more onto gaming, the market has reacted and generally that hasn't been by pandering to the degree the movie or comic book industry has, but a more natural move to portraying good female characters that have cross gender appeal.

So I don't think games are sexist, as it is now financially more attractive to target both genders, but you will still see male orientated games to capture the lucrative male market.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Knoyleo » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:01 pm

"It isn't sexist, it's just good business"

pjbetman wrote:That's the stupidest thing ive ever read on here i think.
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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Tafdolphin » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:05 pm

captain red dog wrote:I wouldn't say it is sexist as such, rather the games are tailored to the most lucrative parts of the market. So whilst women apparently make up 50% of gamers, I'd wager that men would generally spend the most money on games.

As women have got more onto gaming, the market has reacted and generally that hasn't been by pandering to the degree the movie or comic book industry has, but a more natural move to portraying good female characters that have cross gender appeal.

So I don't think games are sexist, as it is now financially more attractive to target both genders, but you will still see male orientated games to capture the lucrative male market.


When you say tailored, mind expanding on what you're referring to? Because if by "tailored to" you mean, well everything discussed in the thread this far, that there's sexist son.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by jiggles » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:27 pm

If I'm playing as Catwoman in the Arkham games, you better believe I'm spending 100% of that time ogling her butt. I'm drinking deep, swishing the camera around and watching it wiggle. I'll be going up against the walls and use the boundaries of where the camera can pass through to create fresh, new angles to admire it from and be mesmerised.

Does this make me sexist?

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Tafdolphin » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:35 pm

jiggles wrote:If I'm playing as Catwoman in the Arkham games, you better believe I'm spending 100% of that time ogling her butt. I'm drinking deep, swishing the camera around and watching it wiggle. I'll be going up against the walls and use the boundaries of where the camera can pass through to create fresh, new angles to admire it from and be mesmerised.

Does this make me sexist?


You yourself have not discriminated against anyone necessarily but the game, by presenting that character as little more than a sexual object with it's choice of outfits, camera angles and animations has, by making her little more than an overly sexualised image to be goggled at.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by jiggles » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:00 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
jiggles wrote:If I'm playing as Catwoman in the Arkham games, you better believe I'm spending 100% of that time ogling her butt. I'm drinking deep, swishing the camera around and watching it wiggle. I'll be going up against the walls and use the boundaries of where the camera can pass through to create fresh, new angles to admire it from and be mesmerised.

Does this make me sexist?


You yourself have not discriminated against anyone necessarily, but the game, by presenting that character as little more than a sexual object with it's choice of outfits, camera angles and animations has, by making her little more than an overly sexualised image to be goggled at.


Is she "little more than a sexual object" though? She's not portrayed as being weaker than Batman, and in fact has some extra abilities that Bats doesn't. The gameplay with her is more fun (because the combat is more entertaining) and she's clearly more than capable of handling herself because she spends the whole time beating the gooseberry fool out of thugs to fulfil her own agenda.

I mean, if we're talking about her appearance and how she moves, I'm not sure what changes the game could make in that regard to imply depth of character. Certainly not without coming to the point that you judge a female character entirely by her appearance.

I guess the real question is whether it's possible to make a titillating character without being sexist.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Tafdolphin » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:11 pm

jiggles wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
jiggles wrote:If I'm playing as Catwoman in the Arkham games, you better believe I'm spending 100% of that time ogling her butt. I'm drinking deep, swishing the camera around and watching it wiggle. I'll be going up against the walls and use the boundaries of where the camera can pass through to create fresh, new angles to admire it from and be mesmerised.

Does this make me sexist?


You yourself have not discriminated against anyone necessarily, but the game, by presenting that character as little more than a sexual object with it's choice of outfits, camera angles and animations has, by making her little more than an overly sexualised image to be goggled at.


Is she "little more than a sexual object" though? She's not portrayed as being weaker than Batman, and in fact has some extra abilities that Bats doesn't. The gameplay with her is more fun (because the combat is more entertaining) and she's clearly more than capable of handling herself because she spends the whole time beating the gooseberry fool out of thugs to fulfil her own agenda.

I mean, if we're talking about her appearance and how she moves, I'm not sure what changes the game could make in that regard to imply depth of character. Certainly not without coming to the point that you judge a female character entirely by her appearance.

I guess the real question is whether it's possible to make a titillating character without being sexist.


She's still a sexual object when she's fighting. She's still portrayed as a sexual object when she uses those extra abilities, thanks to the animation. Her story, the writing, shows her to be a worthy frenemy to Batman, the animation focuses on her sex appeal. The game presents, shows her to the player, as something to be desired regardless of the writing that accompanies the character, something you've shown in your reaction to playing her. Again, see 2B in Nier. Just because the writing is competent does not mean the game isn't overly sexualising her. Writing can objectify, presentation can objectify too.

As for the latter question, I really don't think so. Not completely.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by jiggles » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:16 pm

So where's the line in sexualising a character? How much is ok and how much is "overly sexualising"?
Oh gooseberry fool we've landed back at the topic title.

Last edited by jiggles on Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Tafdolphin » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:21 pm

jiggles wrote:So where's the line in sexualising a character? How much is ok and how much is "overly sexualising"?


...you realise that sexualising a character is generally regarded as bad, right?

"According to the American Psychological Association, sexualization occurs when "individuals are regarded as sex objects and evaluated in terms of their physical characteristics and sexiness."


According to the Media Education Foundation, the sexualization of girls in media, and the ways women are portrayed in the dominant culture, is detrimental to the development of young girls as they are developing their identities and understanding themselves as sexual beings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexualization

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by jiggles » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:26 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
jiggles wrote:So where's the line in sexualising a character? How much is ok and how much is "overly sexualising"?


...you realise that sexualising a character is generally regarded as bad, right?

"According to the American Psychological Association, sexualization occurs when "individuals are regarded as sex objects and evaluated in terms of their physical characteristics and sexiness."


According to the Media Education Foundation, the sexualization of girls in media, and the ways women are portrayed in the dominant culture, is detrimental to the development of young girls as they are developing their identities and understanding themselves as sexual beings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexualization


You used the term "overly sexualized" in two consecutive posts and I'm asking where you draw the line between a character being sexualised an acceptable amount or not.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Tafdolphin » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:29 pm

jiggles wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
jiggles wrote:So where's the line in sexualising a character? How much is ok and how much is "overly sexualising"?


...you realise that sexualising a character is generally regarded as bad, right?

"According to the American Psychological Association, sexualization occurs when "individuals are regarded as sex objects and evaluated in terms of their physical characteristics and sexiness."


According to the Media Education Foundation, the sexualization of girls in media, and the ways women are portrayed in the dominant culture, is detrimental to the development of young girls as they are developing their identities and understanding themselves as sexual beings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexualization


You used the term "overly sexualized" in two consecutive posts and I'm asking where you draw the line between a character being sexualised an acceptable amount or not.



Ok. I apologise. My use of "overly sexualised" does, if viewed separate from all the context of this thread, imply that there is a level of sexualisation that I would accept. Again. I apologise for this oversight.

Sexualisation is bad.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by jiggles » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:07 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
jiggles wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
jiggles wrote:So where's the line in sexualising a character? How much is ok and how much is "overly sexualising"?


...you realise that sexualising a character is generally regarded as bad, right?

"According to the American Psychological Association, sexualization occurs when "individuals are regarded as sex objects and evaluated in terms of their physical characteristics and sexiness."


According to the Media Education Foundation, the sexualization of girls in media, and the ways women are portrayed in the dominant culture, is detrimental to the development of young girls as they are developing their identities and understanding themselves as sexual beings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexualization


You used the term "overly sexualized" in two consecutive posts and I'm asking where you draw the line between a character being sexualised an acceptable amount or not.



Ok. I apologise. My use of "overly sexualised" does, if viewed separate from all the context of this thread, imply that there is a level of sexualisation that I would accept. Again. I apologise for this oversight.

Sexualisation is bad.


What I'm getting at is that I don't believe sexism or sexualisation are a binary concepts at all and it's probably harmful to treat them as if they are.

Looking at sexism through a binary lens, you're assigning a broad label (that could virtually be assigned to everything) to attitudes and designs that don't really rub me the wrong way, or that I sometimes even enjoy. This in turn dilutes your concept of sexism to the point that people will be quick to defend it, because you've slapped a label (to which you have assigned massively negative associations) on them or something they enjoy and they feel they haven't done anything ill-intentioned to deserve the scorn. Worse yet, someone could get so defensive that they start to feel they are being shamed or victimised for enjoying looking at titillating media, and entrench themselves to the point that it's no longer possible to have meaningful discourse because they see you as "the SJW who's here to ruin the fun for them".

Personally, I think sexism is a scale with varying shades of grey, and everyone has their own comfort level. Pretty much everything is sexist on some level, and what might be appalling to some could be genuinely harmless to others.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Trelliz » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:28 pm

Maybe i'm cynical from all the gamergate fallout, but without input from actual women who may or may not be affected by such things, such discussions seem like a virtue-signalling conpetition.

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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by Tafdolphin » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:33 pm

jiggles wrote:
What I'm getting at is that I don't believe sexism or sexualisation are a binary concepts at all and it's probably harmful to treat them as if they are.


I understand what you're saying here: one man's "bit of a laff eh?" is another man's "sexualisation of women." It's true that I think I skew to the left on this issue, mainly because what concerns me are the attitudes you're espousing here

Looking at sexism through a binary lens, you're assigning a broad label (that could virtually be assigned to everything) to attitudes and designs that don't really rub me the wrong way, or that I sometimes even enjoy. This in turn dilutes your concept of sexism to the point that people will be quick to defend it, because you've slapped a label (to which you have assigned massively negative associations) on them or something they enjoy and they feel they haven't done anything ill-intentioned to deserve the scorn. Worse yet, someone could get so defensive that they start to feel they are being shamed or victimised for enjoying looking at titillating media, and entrench themselves to the point that it's no longer possible to have meaningful discourse because they see you as "the SJW who's here to ruin the fun for them".


And that does happen. And I understand why. But would I change my view of what is sexist and what isn't because this happens? No. We as men forget, or more accurately never realise in the first place, that we live in a world created by our gender, and full of tropes that defend and empower our gender over women. Men have not generally ever been affected by sexism on a cultural level. Women have been the subservient sex for many, many generations. If by pointing examples of this out in media I see I'm entrenching those that disagree then so be it. If something is sexist, it is sexist. I disagree that there's much room for manoeuvre.

Do I fulfill these principles myself, never watching porn and never playing games with titillating female characters? No. Does that make me a massive hypercrite. Perhaps. But on a societal and cultural level I feel it is wrong to simply accept these standards as immovable.

Personally, I think sexism is a scale with varying shades of grey, and everyone has their own comfort level. Pretty much everything is sexist on some level, and what might be appalling to some could be genuinely harmless to others.


Replace the word "sexism" in that sentence with "racism." Doesn't look so good, does it?


EDIT:

Trelliz wrote:Maybe i'm cynical from all the gamergate fallout, but without input from actual women who may or may not be affected by such things, such discussions seem like a virtue-signalling conpetition.


Yeah I get your point. I do wish we had a perspective from someone actually affected by these terms (although I disagree that this is virtue-signalling. I'm genuinely interested in this topic).

Last edited by Tafdolphin on Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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PostRe: Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?
by captain red dog » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:38 pm

Knoyleo wrote:"It isn't sexist, it's just good business"

You confusing sexism with marketing and attracting certain demographics. The reason we are seeing less overtly sexist games is because it's now more lucrative to make games that have a wider appeal across gender. But you will still see games heavily slanted towards males like COD or GTA because they make money.


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