Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?

The Avengers movie poster is actually just lazy design and a bit sexist towards both sexes if you think about it.

Not only does it have the female character in the T&A pose it has all the male characters in a stereotypical macho 'GRRRRR I'm dead 'ard' pose.

Ironhide wrote:The Avengers movie poster is actually just lazy design and a bit sexist towards both sexes if you think about it.

Not only does it have the female character in the T&A pose it has all the male characters in a stereotypical macho 'GRRRRR I'm dead 'ard' pose.

That's accurate though. If Black Widow pointing her arse at me like that, then I would be dead 'ard.

Ironhide wrote:The Avengers movie poster is actually just lazy design and a bit sexist towards both sexes if you think about it.

Not only does it have the female character in the T&A pose it has all the male characters in a stereotypical macho 'GRRRRR I'm dead 'ard' pose.

But they're superheroes, that's what they should be doing! They should all be in Dead 'ard poses not just the male characters.

Moggy wrote:...trying to highlight sexism with a ridiculous or petty example is only harming the arguments. Gamergate types will pounce on such things as "SJWs White Knighting women in tunnels", it's easy ammo for them and allows them to ignore the big issues that actually exist. It's the same as when you try and argue against racism and are just told "bah, PC gone mad, can't sing Baa Baa Black Sheep anymore!".

I've never played or seen Blazblue, but it sounds like a far better place to start a conversation about sexism then Lara Croft's bum in a tunnel.

I think the same thing about pretty much every progressive subject (racism, sexism, trans rights, etc etc). People who wish to promote changes in thinking and attitude need to be very careful about the examples and arguments they put forward. They have a responsibility not to detract from the message by citing ridiculous stuff - it can be used by those opposing change as evidence that activists are all nutters who shouldn't be listened to. Any council that does Winterval or equivalent is being strawberry floating stupid.

Eighthours wrote:

Moggy wrote:...trying to highlight sexism with a ridiculous or petty example is only harming the arguments. Gamergate types will pounce on such things as "SJWs White Knighting women in tunnels", it's easy ammo for them and allows them to ignore the big issues that actually exist. It's the same as when you try and argue against racism and are just told "bah, PC gone mad, can't sing Baa Baa Black Sheep anymore!".

I've never played or seen Blazblue, but it sounds like a far better place to start a conversation about sexism then Lara Croft's bum in a tunnel.

I think the same thing about pretty much every progressive subject (racism, sexism, trans rights, etc etc). People who wish to promote changes in thinking and attitude need to be very careful about the examples and arguments they put forward. They have a responsibility not to detract from the message by citing ridiculous stuff - it can be used by those opposing change as evidence that activists are all nutters who shouldn't be listened to. Any council that does Winterval or equivalent is being strawberry floating stupid.

Don't forget though that a lot of that stuff is made up (or massively overhyped) by the far right in order to make being a decent human being look ridiculous.

See Fox News "war on Christmas" bollocks every single year for an example.

Moggy wrote:

Eighthours wrote:

Moggy wrote:...trying to highlight sexism with a ridiculous or petty example is only harming the arguments. Gamergate types will pounce on such things as "SJWs White Knighting women in tunnels", it's easy ammo for them and allows them to ignore the big issues that actually exist. It's the same as when you try and argue against racism and are just told "bah, PC gone mad, can't sing Baa Baa Black Sheep anymore!".

I've never played or seen Blazblue, but it sounds like a far better place to start a conversation about sexism then Lara Croft's bum in a tunnel.

I think the same thing about pretty much every progressive subject (racism, sexism, trans rights, etc etc). People who wish to promote changes in thinking and attitude need to be very careful about the examples and arguments they put forward. They have a responsibility not to detract from the message by citing ridiculous stuff - it can be used by those opposing change as evidence that activists are all nutters who shouldn't be listened to. Any council that does Winterval or equivalent is being strawberry floating stupid.

Don't forget though that a lot of that stuff is made up (or massively overhyped) by the far right in order to make being a decent human being look ridiculous.

See Fox News "war on Christmas" bollocks every single year for an example.

Oh yeah, for sure.

Totally forgot that I meant to reply to this. Soz.

Lucien wrote:

Knoyleo wrote:I get what you're saying about people telling an author what their own work was about, but any creative needs to know that their work, and it's interpretation, is entirely out of their control once they release it, and that isn't anything to do with PC, or feminism, but it's just the way things always have been and will be. If you've not considered the state of the female characters in your book or game, and you've lazily written them as bad caricatures or stereotypes, it's your fault. You may not have meant to, but you did.

Sure. I think the difference is how someone judges it - i.e. I found this racist versus The creator of it wants you to think this.

It's definitely important to be able to judge what someone creates separately from that person, however, any artist is ultimately responsible for their art, and if they continually produce stuff that people have to repeatedly call out as sexist/racist/whatever, you have to assume they either do not care about the groups they're offending, or are seeking to do so willingly.

Lucien wrote:

Knoyleo wrote:As a result, she's in the defacto tits and ass pose, that's so industry standard, it barely raises an eyebrow from most. But as highlighted by the illustration Hexx posted, it would be ridiculous if any male characters were positioned in the same way. By not thinking about it, the poster has walked into using lazy tropes that rely on offensive perceptions just because it's normal.

That's the simple test for any creative. If what's happening to a female character in your film/game/whatever would never happen to a male character, or would seem ludicrous for a male character, it's probably at least a bit sexist, and maybe you should consider that before continuing.

I disagree with the first part. If the Avengers were all female bar one guy, and he was in that pose, I wouldn't find it sexist; you may disagree. I can get however that if you compile lots of posters for different films and they all show a similar theme you could say it appears a studio or industry has an issue overall.

Not at all. You're right, it wouldn't be sexist.

However, based on how I've seen you post before, and the way you frame this example, I suspect we agree for different reasons.

The reason it's not sexist, is because it's not part of a common trend that male characters in films, especially within certain genres, are almost always sexy as a major character trait. Men can be pretty diverse as characters, and so to have the odd, "sexy man" characters, is fine. It would likely be seen as a lampoon of sexist posters of female characters to put a man in that pose, as it's a pose you would never see a man strike on a movie poster except for when it's sending up the way women are expected to pose.

As it is, this is just one in a long trend of token sexy female side characters.

Lucien wrote:I can get however that if you compile lots of posters for different films and they all show a similar theme you could say it appears a studio or industry has an issue overall.

This pose has it's own page on TVtropes. It's a well documented lazy portrayal of women purely as sexual objects.

what a moron

I know a lot of this thread concerns female portrayals and rightfully so, but I often really dislike male portrayals in games.

If given the choice I always choose a female character because they almost always have far more freedom in terms of

- Clothing
- Sexuality
- Personality
- Emotions

I genuinely cannot think of a male video game character that I can relate to. They are all the same Where as Characters like Max from Life is Strange or Aloy from Horizon I can relate to their personalities and behaviours quite a bit.

EDIT: I lie, Henry from Firewatch I found relatable

Tafdolphin wrote:

Lucien wrote:I'm apathetic to if they are sexist or not. Literally could not give a solitary gooseberry fool. If you're a private creator you can create almost any kind of fictional universe you want.

Marvin wrote:Sexism in gaming: how much time on your hands do you have to have in order to give a flying f***?

Gemini73 wrote:Truth is, and if I'm honest with myself, I don't give a gooseberry fool either. I really just can't bring myself to care one iota if Lara Croft's backside gets too much camera attention or not.

Again, this is because you are all men and can indeed chose to remain apart from it all. And you all say you don't care, however you care enough to come into the thread about the subject and explicitly say you don't give a gooseberry fool. I'd actually say you do give a gooseberry fool and that the argument in fact makes you angry or uncomfortable in some sense. Which perhaps speaks more about your own personalities than the issue at hand.

Cal wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:This has got nothing to do with the writers. At all. It was a design decision. As I've previously mentioned, this sort of microaggression can come from the writing or the design, and this was a design call.

First one has to accept that a 'microaggression' has occurred. I'm afraid, in this context, I just don't; I actively resent the claim, in fact, but I am troubled at how casually such a claim can now be made - and in so doing become, somehow, a fact just by the act of making it.

Case in point: man admitting he is made uncomfortable by hearing opinions different from his own.

And Cal, it is not a fact. It is my opinion. Moggy does not agree and in my replies to him I explicitly said his view it isn't a problem is as definitive as me saying it is: ie not at all.

My own personalty is that I am not some skinny little SJW who has never been laid LMAO. Next it will be: "We need gender neutral characters!" "We need a vegan role model" etc.

I'm pretty sure Taf could produce a fairly comprehensive map of the world just by plotting locations where he has obtained a gooseberry fool tattoo in memory of a woman he just made sweet, sweet love to but other than that your argument is top class.

Marvin wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:

Lucien wrote:I'm apathetic to if they are sexist or not. Literally could not give a solitary gooseberry fool. If you're a private creator you can create almost any kind of fictional universe you want.

Marvin wrote:Sexism in gaming: how much time on your hands do you have to have in order to give a flying f***?

Gemini73 wrote:Truth is, and if I'm honest with myself, I don't give a gooseberry fool either. I really just can't bring myself to care one iota if Lara Croft's backside gets too much camera attention or not.

Again, this is because you are all men and can indeed chose to remain apart from it all. And you all say you don't care, however you care enough to come into the thread about the subject and explicitly say you don't give a gooseberry fool. I'd actually say you do give a gooseberry fool and that the argument in fact makes you angry or uncomfortable in some sense. Which perhaps speaks more about your own personalities than the issue at hand.

Cal wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:This has got nothing to do with the writers. At all. It was a design decision. As I've previously mentioned, this sort of microaggression can come from the writing or the design, and this was a design call.

First one has to accept that a 'microaggression' has occurred. I'm afraid, in this context, I just don't; I actively resent the claim, in fact, but I am troubled at how casually such a claim can now be made - and in so doing become, somehow, a fact just by the act of making it.

Case in point: man admitting he is made uncomfortable by hearing opinions different from his own.

And Cal, it is not a fact. It is my opinion. Moggy does not agree and in my replies to him I explicitly said his view it isn't a problem is as definitive as me saying it is: ie not at all.

My own personalty is that I am not some skinny little SJW who has never been laid LMAO. Next it will be: "We need gender neutral characters!" "We need a vegan role model" etc.

This is some top class thinking here, intimidatingly so. I can't compete with this sort of high level critical analysis so he wins. Call it all off. Sexism is good.

And I appreciate the complement but I'm definitely not skinny any more.

As soon as you use “SJW” you’ve lost the argument.

Moggy wrote:As soon as you use “SJW” you’ve lost the argument.

But that means you just lost the argument about losing the argument since you just used it

Lagamorph wrote:

Moggy wrote:As soon as you use “SJW” you’ve lost the argument.

But that means you just lost the argument about losing the argument since you just used it

strawberry float off Laga you libtard cuck snowflake.

If I had to choose, I think "cuck" is my absolute favourite thing that right-wing Twitter trolls say. It's such a ridiculous insult to begin with, and they almost never even use it right. I genuinely laugh every time I see it.

Karl wrote:If I had to choose, I think "cuck" is my absolute favourite thing that right-wing Twitter trolls say. It's such a ridiculous insult to begin with, and they almost never even use it right. I genuinely laugh every time I see it.

I bet you love it the most when a loved one of yours gets called it and you just stand there watching.

Moggy wrote:

Karl wrote:If I had to choose, I think "cuck" is my absolute favourite thing that right-wing Twitter trolls say. It's such a ridiculous insult to begin with, and they almost never even use it right. I genuinely laugh every time I see it.

I bet you love it the most when a loved one of yours gets called it and you just stand there watching.

I am the poster-boy for liberal SJW cuckoldsmanship. Won't someone please cuck me?

Karl wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Karl wrote:If I had to choose, I think "cuck" is my absolute favourite thing that right-wing Twitter trolls say. It's such a ridiculous insult to begin with, and they almost never even use it right. I genuinely laugh every time I see it.

I bet you love it the most when a loved one of yours gets called it and you just stand there watching.

I am the poster-boy for liberal SJW cuckoldsmanship. Won't someone please cuck me?

Proof that the real cuck is the liberal from Oxford university.