Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?

Gemini73 wrote:

What are you in favour of? Eradicating any suggestion that women can be (and dress) sexy, beautiful, desirable?

That's certainly the impression I get every time one of these debates/articles get kicked up. And yes, I agree, what a dreary, unexciting place that would be.

Wicked child!




(A marvellous episode of Blackadder by the way.)

Moggy wrote:

Gemini73 wrote:

What are you in favour of? Eradicating any suggestion that women can be (and dress) sexy, beautiful, desirable?

That's certainly the impression I get every time one of these debates/articles get kicked up. And yes, I agree, what a dreary, unexciting place that would be.

*slap* *slap* wicked child! Quoting implies familiarity which is a prerequisite for sex! ...and sex is hardly a fitting topic for discussion on the internet.

Even counting utter shite like House Party, I don't think anyone wants any individual game to be 'banned.' You can comment that it's a shame that women are objectified consistently throughout a whole swathe of gaming media without thinking that media should be censored.

I guess games made by women aimed at women featuring sexy men would be in a sense a step forward. An even bigger step forward would be games that feature a balance of sexy men and women depicted in ways that neither gender find on-the-whole unsettling (I believe Dragon Age was praised for this). A bonus would be if, as we made that step, we also started having depictions of sex that were a little less teenage-boy-fantasy/porn-esque and a little more... real & diverse...?

I just think it would be cool if more games were made not primarily targeted for the horny-17-year-old-guy demographic.

Does anybody actually find any game character "sexy".

No wonder gamers are looked at as virgin dweebs.

Moggy wrote:Does anybody actually find any game character "sexy".

No wonder gamers are looked at as virgin dweebs.

So many games feature over-the-top titillation that it must be a checkbox for targetting that demographic.

I'm not against depicting sex in games in and of itself, I just think games at the moment do a cringeworthy - and, yeah, sexist - job of it.

Karl wrote:

Moggy wrote:Does anybody actually find any game character "sexy".

No wonder gamers are looked at as virgin dweebs.

So many games feature over-the-top titillation that it must be a checkbox for targetting that demographic.

I'm not against depicting sex in games in and of itself, I just think games at the moment do a cringeworthy - and, yeah, sexist - job of it.

Yeah, gaming is stuck in the 70s "Benny Hill chases girls around" level. I think it'll be some time before we see the majority of games moving on from that. I'm not sure it's sexism (obviously some are, I'm talking in general) more an adolescent immaturity.

Moggy wrote:Does anybody actually find any game character "sexy".

For the last 10 years (since our first born came into the world) I've participating in a sexless marriage. Of course I find video game characters sexy.

Karl wrote:Even counting utter shite like House Party, I don't think anyone wants any individual game to be 'banned.' You can comment that it's a shame that women are objectified consistently throughout a whole swathe of gaming media without thinking that media should be censored.

I guess games made by women aimed at women featuring sexy men would be in a sense a step forward. An even bigger step forward would be games that feature a balance of sexy men and women depicted in ways that neither gender find on-the-whole unsettling (I believe Dragon Age was praised for this). A bonus would be if, as we made that step, we also started having depictions of sex that were a little less teenage-boy-fantasy/porn-esque and a little more... real & diverse...?

I just think it would be cool if more games were made not primarily targeted for the horny-17-year-old-guy demographic.

Once again, Karl says what I'm trying to say but without the waffle.

I have said several times that I buy and play these sorts of games. I have said I am not trying to represent the joy police. What I'm asking is that people put things into perspective: everyone on here saying "I don't find this offensive" or "I've never given it a second thought:" this is the equivalent of me saying I don't care about the politics of America: I am aware of it, but it doesn't directly affect me. We are all men in this conversation. Of course you don't find it offensive. Of course you don't think about it. This attitude is precisely the issue.

Women are told by the vast majority of entertainment media that their place is below that of men, that their worth begins with their looks and ends with their subservience. Is every game guilty of this? strawberry float no. Am I advocating the banning of the ones that are? Again, no. All I'm asking for is a little recognition from people that the current status quo is bad and that efforts should be made to change it.

The trouble is that your arguments as to why certain things are sexist make little sense. That image you posted was so ridiculous (I've no idea what gave that is ), that I've no idea if it is a horrifically sexist game or an amazing parody.

Going back to Tomb Raider, the idea that it is sexist that the camera can show a woman's behind in a third person game is crazy. Especially so when the writers of that game are women.

There's no doubt that there is plenty of sexism in gaming, but I think you are seeing it in places that it doesn't exist - which harms your overall argument.

Moggy wrote:The trouble is that your arguments as to why certain things are sexist make little sense. That image you posted was so ridiculous (I've no idea what gave that is ), that I've no idea if it is a horrifically sexist game or an amazing parody.

Going back to Tomb Raider, the idea that it is sexist that the camera can show a woman's behind in a third person game is crazy. Especially so when the writers of that game are women.

There's no doubt that there is plenty of sexism in gaming, but I think you are seeing it in places that it doesn't exist - which harms your overall argument.

I'll take the fact I might be more...sensitive to it? than most. But who are you to say it isn't there at all? I posted a detailed reasoning as to why I thought that particular shot was a bit troubling, not disgustingly sexist, not an affront to women everywhere, just a bit exploitative, which I thought was quite well reasoned. But you've dismissed it completely without a counter. Which is your prerogative. I do not however think it weakens my argument that I'm saying things you don't agree with.

I think the Tomb Raider bum thing is like this: can you point to it in isolation and go "Look at this sexist garbage!"? Not really, you seem a bit silly & oversensitive. But might it crop up on a woman's list of "250 times I've felt a little bit uncomfortable while playing a videogame"? I think it could quite reasonably.

A term that's sometimes used to describe this concept is 'microaggression.' Everyone recognises it's not nearly enough by itself to get worked up over, but if you experience things like it all the time it gradually starts to grate after a while.

(EDIT: For what it's worth I haven't played it so I can't tell if it's actually egregious or not -- the above is based off what Taf's saying & how he described it.)

Tafdolphin wrote:

Moggy wrote:The trouble is that your arguments as to why certain things are sexist make little sense. That image you posted was so ridiculous (I've no idea what gave that is ), that I've no idea if it is a horrifically sexist game or an amazing parody.

Going back to Tomb Raider, the idea that it is sexist that the camera can show a woman's behind in a third person game is crazy. Especially so when the writers of that game are women.

There's no doubt that there is plenty of sexism in gaming, but I think you are seeing it in places that it doesn't exist - which harms your overall argument.

I'll take the fact I might be more...sensitive to it? than most. But who are you to say it isn't there at all? I posted a detailed reasoning as to why I thought that particular shot was a bit troubling, not disgustingly sexist, not an affront to women everywhere, just a bit exploitative, which I thought was quite well reasoned. But you've dismissed it completely. Which is your perogative. I do not however think it weakens my argument that I'm saying things you don't agree with.

Who am I to say it? I didn't say it, look at the words at the start of the paragraph before the bit you bolded.

You are saying that a game written by women is sexist because during an escape from a cave the camera is behind the character? I completely disagree.

Where it weakens your overall argument is that it is making the whole overall issue sound like the trivial annoyance of somebody who is oversensitive. It reminds me of the bullshit stories you hear where the word "blackboard" can't be used because of the PC gone mad world we live in.

There are undoubtedly big issues around sexism in gaming, but a girl escaping a cave through a tunnel really isn't it.

Yup, I was just about to edit "microaggression" in there. Damn you/thanks karl. I'm not saying it's a scene that should never have been put in the game, but it's a typical bit of minor exploitative design that, as you say, could lead to someone feeling uncomfortable if seen over and over

Moggy wrote:Who am I to say it? I didn't say it, look at the words at the start of the paragraph before the bit you bolded.

You are saying that a game written by women is sexist because during an escape from a cave the camera is behind the character? I completely disagree.

This has got nothing to do with the writers. At all. It was a design decision. As I've previously mentioned, this sort of microaggression can come from the writing or the design, and this was a design call. And you realise that women can still write/design sexist content, right? And you seem to have completely glossed over my walkthrough of why I think the section is dodgy. It's a few pages back.

And I did look at all the text. You said, or heavily implied, that section is completely fine. I disagree: you saying it's fine is no more definitive than me saying it is not.

As you seem to want to to take my comments out of context and patronise me, I'll respond in kind.

Tafdolphin wrote:And you realise that women can still write/design sexist content, right?

It's lucky they've got a big strong man like yourself to tell them where they are going wrong eh? How would those women know how to avoid being sexist without a man to tell them?

C'mon Taf, obviously I know that women can be sexist.

And I did look at all the text. You said, or heavily implied, that section is completely fine. I disagree: you saying it's fine is no more definitive than me saying it is not.

I'm glad you have taken the time to explain opinions to me, I was quite confused that not everyone thinks in exactly the same way.

I said that section is fine because it makes absolute sense in the context of what is going on. It's a third person game where somebody is escaping from a cave. You see it as "oggling the arse", most people didn't notice. It's not a microaggression, it's what happens if you crawl through unstable old tombs/caves.

Sure they could have avoided having Lara trapped in a cave at all. Maybe she could have stayed home and made sure she was never anywhere dangerous?

We differ on opinion with this, we are not so far apart on the issue of sexism on the whole though.

I find it odd you seem to use "women writers" as a reason the game's not sexist in one post, then immediately admit this is not the case in the next. And I stand by my reasoning; there are multiple ways that could have been accomplished, they chose an "oggle oggle arse arse" one. And I get that you're being sarcastic, but I covered the non-mandatory aspect in that post too which, again, has nothing to do with the lessening of the drama of the game.

But yes. Agree to disagree.

Tafdolphin wrote:I find it odd you use "women writers" as a reason that bit's not sexist in one post, then immediately admit this is not the case in the next.

I don't think I did either of those things.

"Women writers" is just a fact. Two women wrote the plot of the game. I assume they were aware of it being third person and I sssume that they wrote the scenes where Lara is escaping through a tunnel. It's both a writing and a design choice.

The designers might have put a shapely arse in there, I wouldn't say that was sexist. If it was a male character escaping through a tunnel, the male character would have tight man buns in exactly the same way. The guilt there is "make the character attractive" rather than "Coooor! Cope a load of that girl arse!".

IMO of course.

I can't see where I admitted it wasn't the case in the next post. Female writers wrote a cave escape scene, designers (I've no idea if they were male, female or mixed) realised the scene based on the writing.

Tafdolphin wrote:This has got nothing to do with the writers. At all. It was a design decision. As I've previously mentioned, this sort of microaggression can come from the writing or the design, and this was a design call.

First one has to accept that a 'microaggression' has occurred. I'm afraid, in this context, I just don't; I actively resent the claim, in fact, but I am troubled at how casually such a claim can now be made - and in so doing become, somehow, a fact just by the act of making it.

On the upside, this kind of postmodernist lunacy did give us the entire Mass Effect Andromeda circus/farce/internet drama - funny, but ultimately depressing in terms of what it signifies for the freedom of game character design choices, going forward.

Lucien wrote:I'm apathetic to if they are sexist or not. Literally could not give a solitary gooseberry fool.

I have been mulling this whole "sexism in video games" over since this thread appeared. I have a few gaming friends who can get quite passionate about the subject. Usually I just keep quiet, choosing not to poke the bear, so to speak.

Truth is, and if I'm honest with myself, I don't give a gooseberry fool either. I really just can't bring myself to care one iota if Lara Croft's backside gets too much camera attention or not.

Sexism in gaming: how much time on your hands do you have to have in order to give a flying f***?