Sexism in gaming: how much arse is too much arse?

captain red dog wrote:

Knoyleo wrote:"It isn't sexist, it's just good business"

You confusing sexism with marketing and attracting certain demographics. The reason we are seeing less overtly sexist games is because it's now more lucrative to make games that have a wider appeal across gender. But you will still see games heavily slanted towards males like COD or GTA because they make money.

Again, this is an excuse for sexism. Just because it's there to make money does not mean it isn't sexist.

Tafdolphin wrote:Replace the word "sexism" in that sentence with "racism." Doesn't look so good, does it?

I'd say the exact same thing and stand by it. I mean, you can't look at, say, Uncharted: Drake's Fortune and say that the game isn't pretty racist, but it's perfectly possible to play through it, enjoy it, and not even take notice to the fact that you were a white dude gunning down brown dudes the whole time.

I can't see how it's possible for an adult human to create something about humans that isn't sexist or racist on some level. Whether through bias from their own experience or their audience's interpretation (however overt or imperceptible).

Sexism is bad and harmful, obviously. But, well, something like selfishness is also bad and harmful. A creator making content that has some level of sexism in it doesn't automatically make them a bad person. It just makes them a person.

Back to the topic.

Are games sexist? Yes. Everything is sexist.

But are games too sexist?

jiggles wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:
Replace the word "sexism" in that sentence with "racism." Doesn't look so good, does it?

I'd say the exact same thing and stand by it.

jiggles wrote:Personally, I think racism is a scale with varying shades of grey, and everyone has their own comfort level. Pretty much everything is racist on some level, and what might be appalling to some could be genuinely harmless to others.

Ok man, I'm out. Thanks for contributing but that is just...too much.

At least you kept an open mind instead of just thinking "but that word = bad" and contributing knee-jerk reactions throughout the whole discussion.

Would you really say that a white guy shooting brown guys is racist? They're not being shot because they're brown, they're being shot because they're the enemy. Same as if Drake was shooting a load of white guys - they wouldn't be being shot because they're white, but because they're the enemy.

I hope that makes sense.

Preezy wrote:Would you really say that a white guy shooting brown guys is racist? They're not being shot because they're brown, they're being shot because they're the enemy. Same as if Drake was shooting a load of white guys - they wouldn't be being shot because they're white, but because they're the enemy.

I hope that makes sense.

Those motivations are why I used the example. It's possible to run through the whole game and not even notice the people you were gunning down were disproportionately dark-skinned, or that the white enemies were all well-equipped dudes with clearly more funding and training than the poorer, ragtag black enemies, because the race of your opponents doesn't factor into your motivations for taking them down at all.

But the racist undertones are there with the powerful white guy taking down hundreds of weak brown guys, or the white enemies being better off (and again, more powerful) than the brown enemies.

What I'm saying is that, like sexist content, people have different tolerance levels for how racist something has to be before it offends them. But Taf thinks that's ridiculous, which would imply that he thinks everything and everyone is either RACIST or NOT RACIST. Like it's impossible for someone to, say, develop a game like Uncharted but still think the KKK are bad.

Preezy wrote:Would you really say that a white guy shooting brown guys is racist? They're not being shot because they're brown, they're being shot because they're the enemy. Same as if Drake was shooting a load of white guys - they wouldn't be being shot because they're white, but because they're the enemy.

I hope that makes sense.

I think racism in gaming needs a separate thread, unless said brown guys have particularly nice bums.

Yeah perhaps we'll park the racism debate for another thread, interesting discussion though.

First, let me be clear: There can never be enough arse in videogames. Male or female, I'm happy either way. The problem for me is that there isn't enough of it.

Personally, I like my video games a little bit cheeky, suggestive, mildly pornographic even. Is a game like Onechanbra Z2: Chaos sexist and demeaning towards women or actually a riotous, unashamed celebration of eye-popping female sexuality (with guns and swords)? I rather think it's the latter. These women do spend the entirety of the game kicking ass and taking names, after all. The fact they have suspiciously over active chest physics might be a trigger for some - for me, it's all part of the ridiculous, yet thoroughly enjoyable romp.

I'm fed up with self-appointed moral police persons (yes, I'll steer away from gender-specifics on that one) taking offence at anything in video games that dares to suggest the female (or male, for that matter) form might be worth celebrating in a sexualised way. Yes, you can argue about context, but for every unabashed exploitative rendering of an over-sexualised female...well, here comes yet another Mary Sue - a Woman Who Can Do Anything Better Than Men. So which is it? Oversexualised or over-exaggerated?

Give me strong, attractive females (and men!) who are unafraid of their latent sexual appeal. There is nothing - absolutely nothing - wrong with that. Whichever way you swing, take joy in recognising the beauty of the human form and celebrating its appeal. It would be great if these characters could be a little more human at times and a little less stylised, either as too over-sexualised or too far down the 'Hero Who Can Magically Do Anything' road.

You know who my favourite female game character is? Amanda Ripley (Alien Isolation). Here is a woman who is not over-sexualised in any way, but whom - crucially - is not also a Mary Sue. She is an every-woman. Tough? Sure. Resourceful? Certainly. Practical and logical and compassionate? Check. But indestructible? Nope. A know-it-all? Not at all. Prone to making mistakes, conscious of her own limitations? Yes and yes. Flawed? Of course...and you get the idea. She's a fantastic hero. She's an ordinary woman thrust into an unimaginably terrifying situation but - and this is so refreshing - she doesn't have all the answers, no magic powers, no special skills. She just has to find her own way, using only the tools available to hand, knowing all the time that at any moment her own carelessness could accidently kill herself. Like her mother before her, she's a perfect antidote to the total nonsense we continually have to suffer from inappropriate, unrealistic Mary Sues.

People rave about games like The Last of Us. Yeah, I get it; it's a fantastic, beautiful, cinematic, well-told story. But Ellie - a slim, untrained 14 year-old girl - was somehow a crack-shot with a rifle, could knife-fight with the best of them and despite her diminutive form could somehow take down fully-grown adult men with a single stab. How realistic is this? Does it serve women and girls to suggest that this scenario is somehow realistic?

Anyway, TL;DR - More arse, please. Less moral policing would be nice, too.

You know who my favourite female game character is? Amanda Ripley (Alien Isolation). Here is a woman who is not over-sexualised in any way, but whom - crucially - is not also a Mary Sue. She is an every-woman. Tough? Sure? Resourceful? Certainly. Practical and logical and compassionate? Check. But indestructible? Nope. A know-it-all? Not at all. Prone to making mistakes, conscious of her own limitations? Yes and yes. Flawed? Of course...and you get the idea. She's a fantastic hero. She's an ordinary woman thrust into an unimaginably terrifying situation but - and this is so refreshing - she doesn't have all the answers, no magic powers, no special skills. She just has to find her own way, using only the tools available to hand, knowing all the time that at any moment her own carelessness could accidently kill herself. Like her mother before her, she's a perfect antidote to the total nonsense we continually have to suffer from inappropriate, unrealistic Mary Sues.

People rave about games like The Last of Us. Yeah, I get it; it's a fantastic, beautiful, cinematic, well-told story. But Ellie - a slim, untrained 14 year-old girl - was somehow a crack-shot with a rifle, could knife-fight with the best of them and despite her diminutive form could somehow take down fully-grown adult men with a single stab. How realistic is this? Does it serve women and girls to suggest that this scenario is somehow realistic?

I agree with both of these examples. They are two of the exceptions that prove the rule however.

The rest of your post I do not agree with.

Cal wrote:First, let me be clear: There can never be enough arse in videogames. Male or female, I'm happy either way. The problem for me is that there isn't enough of it.

Personally, I like my video games a little bit cheeky, suggestive, mildly pornographic even. Is a game like Onechanbra Z2: Chaos sexist and demeaning towards women or actually a riotous, unashamed celebration of eye-popping female sexuality (with guns and swords)? I rather think it's the latter. These women do spend the entirety of the game kicking ass and taking names, after all. The fact they have suspiciously over active chest physics might be a trigger for some - for me, it's all part of the ridiculous, yet thoroughly enjoyable romp.

I'm fed up with self-appointed moral police persons (yes, I'll steer away from gender-specifics on that one) taking offence at anything in video games that dares to suggest the female (or male, for that matter) form might be worth celebrating in a sexualised way. Yes, you can argue about context, but for every unabashed exploitative rendering of an over-sexualised female...well, here comes yet another Mary Sue - a Woman Who Can Do Anything Better Than Men. So which is it? Oversexualised or over-exaggerated?

Give me strong, attractive females (and men!) who are unafraid of their latent sexual appeal. There is nothing - absolutely nothing - wrong with that. Whichever way you swing, take joy in recognising the beauty of the human form and celebrating its appeal. It would be great if these characters could be a little more human at times and a little less stylised, either as too over-sexualised or too far down the 'Hero Who Can Magically Do Anything' road.

The issue here, again, is that people are treating sexualisation across the genders as equally prominent. It is not.

Look at this for example.

Females are twice as likely as males to be hypersexualised on camera, a UN-backed report has found.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 50047.html

Throughout your entire post you use genders interchangeably, ignoring the central point of the whole argument: genders are not treated the same. Women are objectified in films more than twice as much as men and I'd hazard it's the same or worse in games. This treatment has been shown to actively damage the development of young girls. Your "enjoyable romp" contributes to the societal norm that women are there to be oggled at by men, and that girls are not in charge of their own sexual depictions or power. Like I say there are exception, two of the best you have already pointed out, but they are just that.

The fact that the women in the game you mentioned "kick ass" means nothing when they are presented like this:



This is not a strong female image. This is borderline pornography created by a man, designed by a man, intended for men.

As for your objection to moral policing, hey. You're Cal. I didn't expect anything less.

Sexual imagery aside though, Taf, OneChanBara Z2 is a damn fun game.* I also agree with Cal that attractive characters, irrespective of gender, are generally always more appealing. I don't want to see an obese Claire Redfield squeezing her fat posterior through dimily lit corridors of an underground lab of Umbrella. I want my characters to be appealing not just mentally, but physically as well.

*Of course having bananas as a "costume" isn't mandatory in Z2.

My main issue with that costume is what the hell is that banana being held in place by.

And I agree that sexualisation isn't entirely the same as sexism.

Edit: This sig really does need to be retired.

Tafdolphin wrote:Throughout your entire post you use genders interchangeably, ignoring the central point of the whole argument: genders are not treated the same. Women are objectified in films more than twice as much as men and I'd hazard it's the same or worse in games. This treatment has been shown to actively damage the development of young girls. Your "enjoyable romp" contributes to the societal norm that women are there to be oggled at by men, and that girls are not in charge of their own sexual depictions or power. Like I say there are exception, two of the best you have already pointed out, but they are just that.

The fact that the women in the game you mentioned "kick ass" means nothing when they are presented like this:

This is not a strong female image. This is borderline pornography created by a man, designed by a man, intended for men.

And I'd say 'so what?' No, really: so what? I can't take offence at that image - I actually think it's pretty damn sexy. (Note to self: buy that DLC outfit pronto!).

This is pretty hot, too:



Goddam, that young Dante from DmC is still one of the sexiest men in video games for me! I only wish the developer hadn't chickened-out and instead of the pizza slice had shown us his actual business. Now that really would have been revolutionary and there I think we can probably agree on something. If we're looking for parity between the way the sexes are represented in video games, then bring on the shlongs! Look, I'm not arguing for a race to the bottom (forgive the pun), but rather that people should calm the you-know-what down about sexualisation of adult characters (male or female) in video games. I see plenty of strong, self-deterministic, in control, non-overtly sexualised women and girls in video games. Really, they are everywhere these days.

What are you in favour of? Eradicating any suggestion that women can be (and dress) sexy, beautiful, desirable? Should we ban Bayonetta? What a dreary, unexciting place that will be. What makes Onechanbara Z2 such fun is that we all know it's more than a little bit titillating, naughty, suggestive... it's a very guilty pleasure and I don't think it's in the least bit fueled by any malign intent towards women by either developers or players who enjoy it. If anything - at least, for me - a game like that is a rampant, bursting-at-the-seams, celebration of wild feminine sexuality.

Tafdolphin wrote:As for your objection to moral policing, hey. You're Cal. I didn't expect anything less.

I just don't approve of killjoys.

What are you in favour of? Eradicating any suggestion that women can be (and dress) sexy, beautiful, desirable?

That's certainly the impression I get every time one of these debates/articles get kicked up. And yes, I agree, what a dreary, unexciting place that would be.

Gemini73 wrote:

What are you in favour of? Eradicating any suggestion that women can be (and dress) sexy, beautiful, desirable?

That's certainly the impression I get every time one of these debates/articles get kicked up. And yes, I agree, what a dreary, unexciting place that would be.

Wicked child!




(A marvellous episode of Blackadder by the way.)

Moggy wrote:

Gemini73 wrote:

What are you in favour of? Eradicating any suggestion that women can be (and dress) sexy, beautiful, desirable?

That's certainly the impression I get every time one of these debates/articles get kicked up. And yes, I agree, what a dreary, unexciting place that would be.

*slap* *slap* wicked child! Quoting implies familiarity which is a prerequisite for sex! ...and sex is hardly a fitting topic for discussion on the internet.

Even counting utter shite like House Party, I don't think anyone wants any individual game to be 'banned.' You can comment that it's a shame that women are objectified consistently throughout a whole swathe of gaming media without thinking that media should be censored.

I guess games made by women aimed at women featuring sexy men would be in a sense a step forward. An even bigger step forward would be games that feature a balance of sexy men and women depicted in ways that neither gender find on-the-whole unsettling (I believe Dragon Age was praised for this). A bonus would be if, as we made that step, we also started having depictions of sex that were a little less teenage-boy-fantasy/porn-esque and a little more... real & diverse...?

I just think it would be cool if more games were made not primarily targeted for the horny-17-year-old-guy demographic.

Does anybody actually find any game character "sexy".

No wonder gamers are looked at as virgin dweebs.

Moggy wrote:Does anybody actually find any game character "sexy".

No wonder gamers are looked at as virgin dweebs.

So many games feature over-the-top titillation that it must be a checkbox for targetting that demographic.

I'm not against depicting sex in games in and of itself, I just think games at the moment do a cringeworthy - and, yeah, sexist - job of it.