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A debate without end, answer or middleground: are the majority of entries in the hobby we all love...sexist? On one hand it's a silly question as games are as diverse as the day is long, and there are infinite meanings for the term "sexism" but on the other I believe it's a worthwhile enquiry into the nature of interactive entertainment and it's generalised attitude towards the genders.

I would argue that yes, the majority of games across these genres remains foundationally rooted in sexism. Clickbait games (which are still games, remember) advertise using scantily clad women and promise nudity and eroticism, females in many AAA games are side characters or love interests (Cortana in Halo, Peach in Mario, strawberry floating Quiet in MGSV) and even female protagonists are often sexualised and viewed purely through the Male Gaze (Lara Croft, even the new one, Samus).

There are of course counterexamples: Alyx in Half Life is a kick-arse character (although still a side character who requires rescuing), and the fact that the protagonist in Portal is female is treated as perfectly natural (how easy it would have been to have Wheatley make some crude gender jibes). The indie dev scene has many, many female developers pushing messages of equality and creating stories from the female POV.

So...dem games? Are they sexist?

Some articles

Yes they are

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism_in_video_gaming

https://mic.com/articles/121528/sexism- ... .x3rDYYRY9

No they are not

http://www.newstatesman.com/games/2013/ ... ism-gaming (was looking for an article arguing this very point...this isn't what I initially thought it was!)

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comment ... f_sommers/

(And, erm, that's it. I couldn't really find any articles specifically arguing that games aren't sexist, only that being sexist has nothing to do with games)

Regardless of the answer so long as it sells then that's how they'll be. It's the same with films and TV. Rather than "taking a risk" on something different to the usual it's easier to just go with something proven to make money, especially with how big some game budgets are nowadays.

Hopefully titles like Horizon Zero Dawn are beginning to change that attitude but it's going to be a long process so long as marketing executives are the ones holding the real power over what does/doesn't get greenlit.

Often a little bit, occasionally a lot.

Some games are sexist

Some are not sexist

A worrying percentage are still the former, but it's getting better

Tetris is the worst

OrangeRakoon wrote:Some games are sexist

Some are not sexist

A worrying percentage are still the former, but it's getting better

Tetris is the worst

A valid response, but I suppose my question is more "Do you think there's enough sexism for it to be an issue across the industry?" Not every film is sexist, but there's been a raging debate about inequality in the movie business for years.

EDIT: Also, Nick don't think I didn't see that response. I really hope it was sarcastic...

Generally speaking, yes. The industry has had a terrible attitude to women for a long time, through games but also advertising, hiring practices and stuff like press conference and industry events. The audience too, obviously, has been enormously sexist in the past.

In regards to the industry itself at least this seems to have changed a lot in recent years. In fact spurring the industry into addressing sexism might be the only thing the turgid GamerGate "movement" ever accomplished. We've seen better female characters (Chloe in Life is Strange, Aloy in Horizon Zero Dawn, Clem in Walking Dead, Ellie in TLOU, the rebooted Lara Croft, stuff like Gone Home, Her Story), better representation of women across the board (female avatars in multiplayer shooters for example) and women have been more prominent in the industry too.

Yes, but this is just how things are unfortunately. Sex is added to everything. Look at movies from the 50s compared to today, no actress was expected to get their kit off. Look at music, imagine a song in the 50s or 60s mentioning sex or an LP with the word "strawberry float" on. Why should we expect any other form of entertainment to not pander to the same market?

Sex sells.

I'm not sure it's a yes-or-no question. Some games are actively progressive, some games are a mixed bag, some games are quite sexist. Many gamers are sensible, liberal, and feminist, but many others are actively misogynistic. Overall I would say 'gaming culture' is still pretty sexist, but is rapidly improving.

Death's Head wrote:Yes, but this is just how things are unfortunately. Sex is added to everything. Look at movies from the 50s compared to today, no actress was expected to get their kit off. Look at music, imagine a song in the 50s or 60s mentioning sex or an LP with the word "strawberry float" on. Why should we expect any other form of entertainment to not pander to the same market?

Sex sells.

Common misconception: sexism isn't just about sex. It's about gender. Sure, "sex sells" and that's a mantra that's every bit as true today as it was in the 50s*, but this doesn't cover aspects of sexism such as the under-representation of women in games. Check the graphs in the mic article: female protags are few and far between, although as Skippy says that is improving. Remember The Last Night, set in a world where "feminism won" and where equality and plenty is seen as a negative.

*EDIT: No it's not, don't know why I said that. It's still true, but there's a lot more issues around it these days.

Tafdolphin wrote:

Death's Head wrote:Yes, but this is just how things are unfortunately. Sex is added to everything. Look at movies from the 50s compared to today, no actress was expected to get their kit off. Look at music, imagine a song in the 50s or 60s mentioning sex or an LP with the word "strawberry float" on. Why should we expect any other form of entertainment to not pander to the same market?

Sex sells.

Common misconception: sexism isn't just about sex. It's about gender. Sure, "sex sells" and that's a mantra that's every bit as true today as it was in the 50s, but this doesn't cover aspects of sexism such as the under-representation of women in games. Check the graphs in the mic article: female protags are few and far between, although as Skippy says that is improving. Remember The Last Night, set in a world where "feminism won" and where equality and plenty is seen as a negative.

I can't think of many games where time is spent sexing up the male characters. Sex sells, but not the male sex variety.

Death's Head wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:

Death's Head wrote:Yes, but this is just how things are unfortunately. Sex is added to everything. Look at movies from the 50s compared to today, no actress was expected to get their kit off. Look at music, imagine a song in the 50s or 60s mentioning sex or an LP with the word "strawberry float" on. Why should we expect any other form of entertainment to not pander to the same market?

Sex sells.

Common misconception: sexism isn't just about sex. It's about gender. Sure, "sex sells" and that's a mantra that's every bit as true today as it was in the 50s, but this doesn't cover aspects of sexism such as the under-representation of women in games. Check the graphs in the mic article: female protags are few and far between, although as Skippy says that is improving. Remember The Last Night, set in a world where "feminism won" and where equality and plenty is seen as a negative.

I can't think of many games where time is spent sexing up the male characters. Sex sells, but not the male sex variety.

Yeah but "sex sells" has never, ever applied to men when talking about advertising in general. Also, it looks like you're responding to something I wasn't trying to say. I was trying to say that your reply was all about sexualisation. Sexism is about more than that.

Tafdolphin wrote:

Death's Head wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:

Death's Head wrote:Yes, but this is just how things are unfortunately. Sex is added to everything. Look at movies from the 50s compared to today, no actress was expected to get their kit off. Look at music, imagine a song in the 50s or 60s mentioning sex or an LP with the word "strawberry float" on. Why should we expect any other form of entertainment to not pander to the same market?

Sex sells.

Common misconception: sexism isn't just about sex. It's about gender. Sure, "sex sells" and that's a mantra that's every bit as true today as it was in the 50s, but this doesn't cover aspects of sexism such as the under-representation of women in games. Check the graphs in the mic article: female protags are few and far between, although as Skippy says that is improving. Remember The Last Night, set in a world where "feminism won" and where equality and plenty is seen as a negative.

I can't think of many games where time is spent sexing up the male characters. Sex sells, but not the male sex variety.

Yeah but "sex sells" has never, ever applied to men when talking about advertising in general. Also, it looks like you're responding to something I wasn't trying to say. I was trying to say that your reply was all about sexualisation. Sexism is about more than that.

I wasn't specifically answering your question, just lining up the evidence for my view that there are a lot of sexist games and sexist game advertising out there and in production. I don't think this will change.

Tafdolphin wrote:A valid response, but I suppose my question is more "Do you think there's enough sexism for it to be an issue across the industry?" Not every film is sexist, but there's been a raging debate about inequality in the movie business for years.

Yes, it is a large enough issue that it deserves prominence and awareness. Thankfully, I think it already does have the awareness it needs - improvement across the industry is evident and there are many examples of things moving in the right direction.

The movie industry and their equality debate is more directly correlated between the films themselves and the actors/directors working on them which I think is an interesting point of difference. In games we very much see just the subject matter of the games themselves - not how equality fares on the development side. The film industry has a very public issue with the gender pay gap for actors and the bias towards male actors and directors in their industry awards. We don't have that so much in games.

I imagine that the equality in game subject matters and character portrayals will improve quicker than the equality of people working in the industry, if only because it's an issue in the wider technology and development fields.

You need Marvin Gaye and Otis Reading to settle this debate.

Marvin "I've played some games that are sexist"
Otis "Well I've played some games that aren't sexist"
Both "So there you have it, some are some aren't"

For a long time yes and in some genres continue to be, but the industry's attitude toward women has improved and continues to do so.

If I'm being completely honest, though, while it's obviously a good thing to see the industry progress in a more positive attitude toward women I can't say I've ever lost any sleep over whether video games are sexist or not.

Gemini73 wrote:For a long time yes and in some genres continue to be, but the industry's attitude toward women has improved and continues to do so.

If I'm being completely honest, though, while it's obviously a good thing to see the industry progress in a more positive attitude toward women I can't say I've ever lost any sleep over whether video games are sexist or not.

Just out of interest, what gender are you?

Male.

Did that really need asking Taf?

Skippy wrote:Did that really need asking Taf?

I'm guessing it was my response to Taf saying "most games are sexist" in another thread that prompted this one. I think it's too broad and nuanced an issue to say 'most are sexist'. I'll post a longer reply later, just about to go into a meeting.

Skippy wrote:Did that really need asking Taf?

For some reason I thought I saw Gemini identify as female in another thread but no. No it did not.