Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER

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Drumstick
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Drumstick » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:35 am

Qikz wrote:That's not what happens at all.

In other communities, perhaps. But you can't definitely say that it wouldn't happen to our community unless they've had the same past experiences we have (i.e. having the same Mayoral protection mechanic in every game). I personally feel that we’ve reached a point where overwhelming scepticism would cause a no lynch situation for the first few days, giving the minority would what in all essence be a three day headstart.

Take Herbi's second Mafia game for example. For almost a week the majority voted for no lynch. That game itself isn't directly comparable due to the Mafia's contact being restricted in that game but the point we are discussing is. By the time the village decided to wake up and start taking some action the game was as good as won for us (the Mafia).

Qikz wrote:Ok, so right now whoever gets mayor gets protection against wolf kills. The mayor is only protected from wolf kills and no other night role kills, correct?

Incorrect.
Drumstick wrote:6. The elected Mayor will spend the night in the Mayoral Shack which protects him from all attacks.

I made it that way for a reason.

I could agree with an argument along the lines of 'putting a WD in play and removing Mayoral protection would change the strategies employed', but increasing the level of strategy? I'm afraid I don't agree.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Fries. Wedges. Crisps? » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:38 am

EDIT: this is a reply to Qikz.

So your argument is that there should only be one source of protection in the game at any one time, to prevent a 'protection cycle' - that I understand.

But what you're saying is that it's better to remove the mayoral protection than the witch doctor's protection, because while everyone knows who's protected when they're mayor, no-one knows who's protected by the witch doctor.

Your points only hold true if:

- the wolves are down to one kill a night (if they have more than one it's nowhere near as much of a handicap)
- the witch doctor is still alive (the mayoral role doesn't die with its holder; once the WD is gone the concept of protection is removed from the game completely)

You're saying that the wolves are kept guessing and second guessing with the WD in a way that they aren't with the mayor, and that's fair, but it's a minor change and hardly an overwhelming shift in the strategic direction of the game. Whereas the mayoral protection is an open and neutral platform that both sides can exploit. It's a massive part of the strategy behind the game. Even when they're not controlling the thread through being mayor, the wolves can choose who to kill specifically to take heat off or put heat on a mayor, and try and influence the thread into leads that aren't leads. Removing this would take away much more of the strategic element of the game than would be added by putting the WD role back in.

EDIT: yeah Drummy it seems you and I are in agreement.

I think the balance of roles in this game was pretty much spot-on, really.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Qikz » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:40 am

Even when they're not controlling the thread through being mayor, the wolves can choose who to kill specifically to take heat off or put heat on a mayor, and try and influence the thread into leads that aren't leads. Removing this would take away much more of the strategic element of the game than would be added by putting the WD role back in.


Sorry, where is this removed by removing the mayoral protection? That's got nothing to do with the mayor being protected.

If a mayor puts up two lynch candidates and the Mafia deliberately ignore the mayor then it puts suspicion on the mayor since he's still alive, or even the lynch candidate that survived.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Gently-Parted Ringpiece » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:40 am

Dan. wrote:I think the balance of roles in this game was pretty much spot-on, really.


Absolutely. This was proven by the fact it lived so long.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Qikz » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:45 am

There is one other option and that's to remove the mayor role entirely, but that, other than just moving their protection removes an entire subset of strategies. Giving someone a night of invincibility for free isn't a strategy. It's not something people take a risk to do unlike that of a witch doctor. You just give mayor to whoever claims they have information. You can't say that isn't true, because that's how it's always worked. Look at TAP. He claimed LewisD was the Alpha and he had evidence so everyone voted him in for mayor, despite the fact he was wrong.

Having a good witch doctor without mayoral protection adds an incredible amount of depth to how protection works. Yes, the Witch Doctor dying can lead to a situation where there's no protection unless there's a bodyguard/bullletproof role, but that's why you need to keep them alive and they need to play smart. I think there's a place for both styles, but I personally prefer the one I'm trying to describe. I'll eventually get round to running my smaller game and then we'll see how it works over the course of a few games.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Fries. Wedges. Crisps? » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:47 am

Qikz wrote:
Even when they're not controlling the thread through being mayor, the wolves can choose who to kill specifically to take heat off or put heat on a mayor, and try and influence the thread into leads that aren't leads. Removing this would take away much more of the strategic element of the game than would be added by putting the WD role back in.


Sorry, where is this removed by removing the mayoral protection? That's got nothing to do with the mayor being protected.

If a mayor puts up two lynch candidates and the Mafia deliberately ignore the mayor then it puts suspicion on the mayor since he's still alive, or even the lynch candidate that survived.


So what you're saying is that the wolves would be expected to kill the mayor, and in the cases where they don't, the village would then vote to lynch the previous mayor a day later because he's suspicious? Do you not see how boring a cycle that would be? That's not strategy.

Say your witch doctor dies on night one. Then there's no protection whatsoever. All the wolves need to do is kill the actives and get to a point where there are more active wolves than active players left in the game. Then they'd be able to openly control the thread, vote for their own mayor every day, lynch a villager and then kill some more in the night-time. Any vigis couldn't openly come forward without risking themselves because there's no way to get the info out safely, likewise for seers. And as you can't win if you die, what would your incentive be?

Your changes would just be for changes' sake and make the game duller.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Gently-Parted Ringpiece » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:49 am

Qikz wrote:You just give mayor to whoever claims they have information. You can't say that isn't true, because that's how it's always worked. Look at TAP. He claimed LewisD was the Alpha and he had evidence so everyone voted him in for mayor, despite the fact he was wrong.


Yes StayDead. Thats how a game of deductive reasoning works.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Gently-Parted Ringpiece » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:50 am

It strikes me as a path to change because you never get to be a mayor or witchdoctor.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Drumstick » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:51 am

Falsey wrote:
Dan. wrote:I think the balance of roles in this game was pretty much spot-on, really.


Absolutely. This was proven by the fact it lived so long.

This is appreciated. Before I opened registrations, I had thought a lot about the roles I wanted to include. Outside of the normal roles we commonly see, I knew I wanted to include the Bodyguard, and two third-party roles that would have their own win conditions and killing phases to try and keep everyone guessing. I had estimated we would get between 50-60 entrants so I was quite stoked when we got close to 70.

I then did some research on previous games on wolves : innocents ratios. I also had a poke around some other forums who play these games. Then factored in the other roles in order of importance and how many, rule changes, other variables... IMO the weighting of the game is probably the most difficult aspect to get right.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Fries. Wedges. Crisps? » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:53 am

Falsey wrote:It strikes me as a path to change because you never get to be a mayor or witchdoctor.


Actually this is a point. Despite being the dominant force in the thread for about a week, and running for mayor on numerous occasions throughout the game, I've just looked at the OP and realised Qikz was never mayor :lol:

I'd like to hear what DML and the wolves made of Qikz's activity.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Gently-Parted Ringpiece » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:54 am

It would have been interesting to see the balance had the independant win condition roles stayed alive a bit longer. I dont think either of them was capable of winning the game, but it would have definately been a few days worth of chaos and would have changed the flow a bit. Whether this would be a good or bad thing, idk.

@drum
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Fries. Wedges. Crisps? » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:56 am

Yeah, agreed. That having been said, the fact that the pack got so close to winning suggests that the game was very balanced - the pack themselves have spoken on a few occasions about their own inexperience, and the mistakes made by the villager side have been well-documented, which would (you'd expect) make for a very tight game; and so it has been.

I would think this should be the template for the next game, and we can see if a different pack would do things differently, and if the special roles could come into their own in a way that didn't get chance to occur this time around.

@ falsey
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Drumstick » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:57 am

Dan. wrote:
Falsey wrote:It strikes me as a path to change because you never get to be a mayor or witchdoctor.


Actually this is a point. Despite being the dominant force in the thread for about a week, and running for mayor on numerous occasions throughout the game, I've just looked at the OP and realised Qikz was never mayor :lol:

I'd like to hear what DML and the wolves made of Qikz's activity.

Sometime during that week I received a PM asking something along the lines of "Is StayDead's win condition to be elected Mayor?"
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Gently-Parted Ringpiece » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:59 am

After I died I kept up with the thread (as it appears most people did) and it gave me a few ideas of my own. I definately agree this is a good template going forwards though.

As it wore on it became clear it was going to be a long lived game so I realised if I were to run one its not going to be for a long time yet whilst everyone recovers and regains their enthusiasm.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Karl » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:01 am

Absolutely. I think our next big game should be different to AYAW?, too, then we can return to an AYAW?-alike after that.

I love these games but we'll burn out if we have too many.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Gently-Parted Ringpiece » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:01 am

Drumstick wrote:
Dan. wrote:
Falsey wrote:It strikes me as a path to change because you never get to be a mayor or witchdoctor.


Actually this is a point. Despite being the dominant force in the thread for about a week, and running for mayor on numerous occasions throughout the game, I've just looked at the OP and realised Qikz was never mayor :lol:

I'd like to hear what DML and the wolves made of Qikz's activity.

Sometime during that week I received a PM asking something along the lines of "Is StayDead's win condition to be elected Mayor?"


:lol:
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Rhubarb » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:02 am

@Falsey I got a good laugh when you were revealed as a wolf. You made a post about changing your avatar to that shitty werewolf thing I made then deleted it afterwards, which I thought was dodgy as all hell at the time!
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Gently-Parted Ringpiece » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:06 am

I cant remember what the avatar was but I didnt even realise how fishy it was until it had been pointed out. I genuinely only changed it because I found a picture of a kid with a pancake on their face and I thought it was wonderful.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Cheeky Devlin » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:24 am

Falsey wrote:I cant remember what the avatar was but I didnt even realise how fishy it was until it had been pointed out. I genuinely only changed it because I found a picture of a kid with a pancake on their face and I thought it was wonderful.

That pancake avatar was creepy as hell.
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PostRe: Are You A Werewolf? - GAME OVER
by Drumstick » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:29 am

Karl wrote:Absolutely. I think our next big game should be different to AYAW?, too, then we can return to an AYAW?-alike after that.

I love these games but we'll burn out if we have too many.

Agreed. I wasn't sure enough time had passed since MMAYAV (August) to be running this. I reckon an AYAW type game is probably right every 8-10 months with a couple of other unrelated games in between.
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