Are you an atheist, but not an arsehole to religious people?

Yeah. It would certainly be interesting to see how humanity would have evolved without religion.

The irony is, without it we'd probably have a Wayback Machine by now, which is what we need to see what the world would be like without religion.

OK, now my head hurts.

I think the top motivations for war would be:

1. territory (to aquire land and recources)
2. security (to secure your own boarders and land)
3. ideology (which includes religion, although I think nationalism is more important these days)

Of course, they can sometimes be a combination of all three (see the current Isreal/Gaza issue). Anyway, my point is that religion is usually way down the list of priorities even if it is strongly used as a propoganda tool.

King, change your avatar. I wondered why Drumstick was wandering into the God debate there.

Corazon wrote:King, change your avatar. I wondered why Drumstick was wandering into the God debate there.

Lame. The joke failed miserably

Its a great discussion and hard topic, god I miss my A Level days with this...

Anyway, this my two cents, whether you like it or not.

- I was brought up Roman Catholic, until I was about 10 we always went to church, no matter how much I hated it, and I've always been at a catholic church, and its when you reach your teens when you start to question all this that you've been told that you step away from it.
- The fact that it was installed into me from a very early age always makes me think I have innate knowledge of God, thats wrong, the fact is that I've just had this belief for as long as I can remember.
- I don't believe in alot of the bible, and a lot of christian teachings, but I do believe theres a power, something created us, that wasn't scientific. I'll elaborate, yes religions seem to be tools by society to help keep calm and order, and give some people peace I guess, and they do cause stupid wars..etc.., but so does the human who misreads their religion. But for me, I just can't accept that we just appeared, and that we'll just go like the click of a pen, call it stupidity or whatever, but over the years I've strayed away from not believing in anything, to believing in something. Its unexplainable why I believe theres something, I just do. Of course, if we ever found aliens, I think that would change - but hey believing in God, is no more crazy then David Icke (Right name isn't it?) who believes in reptiles gods..etc.. or scientology (which I've been tempted to go for the free tests with a friend just to see what its all really about - but we are seriously scared of any brainwashing). But I agree that there are huge problems with a lot of religions if any, they cannot all be right, and I think some have some stupid rules as well I'm not gonig to say which in case I offend anyone. But as far as religious people go, I respect them completely, people believe in different things, it's their choice, and its not up to me to cast down on people or behave like a prick to them just because they are not the same as me. That's what pisses me off about wars over religion, why can't people just accept that people have different opinions? Theres no need to go kill that nation because of that.

But as the above posts state - Vardy's book is amazing, easy to read and insightful. Read it.

gaminglegend wrote:Its a great discussion and hard topic, god I miss my A Level days with this...

Anyway, this my two cents, whether you like it or not.

- I was brought up Roman Catholic, until I was about 10 we always went to church, no matter how much I hated it, and I've always been at a catholic church, and its when you reach your teens when you start to question all this that you've been told that you step away from it.
- The fact that it was installed into me from a very early age always makes me think I have innate knowledge of God, thats wrong, the fact is that I've just had this belief for as long as I can remember.
- I don't believe in alot of the bible, and a lot of christian teachings, but I do believe theres a power, something created us, that wasn't scientific. I'll elaborate, yes religions seem to be tools by society to help keep calm and order, and give some people peace I guess, and they do cause stupid wars..etc.., but so does the human who misreads their religion. But for me, I just can't accept that we just appeared, and that we'll just go like the click of a pen, call it stupidity or whatever, but over the years I've strayed away from not believing in anything, to believing in something. Its unexplainable why I believe theres something, I just do. Of course, if we ever found aliens, I think that would change - but hey believing in God, is no more crazy then David Icke (Right name isn't it?) who believes in reptiles gods..etc.. or scientology (which I've been tempted to go for the free tests with a friend just to see what its all really about - but we are seriously scared of any brainwashing). But I agree that there are huge problems with a lot of religions if any, they cannot all be right, and I think some have some stupid rules as well I'm not gonig to say which in case I offend anyone. But as far as religious people go, I respect them completely, people believe in different things, it's their choice, and its not up to me to cast down on people or behave like a prick to them just because they are not the same as me. That's what pisses me off about wars over religion, why can't people just accept that people have different opinions? Theres no need to go kill that nation because of that.

But as the above posts state - Vardy's book is amazing, easy to read and insightful. Read it.

And there's what I'm talking about when I talk about indoctrination. You question the beliefs that you were brought up with, but you can't escape the fundamental nature of that belief you were taught when you were young.

Though I should clarify, I'm not saying you're wrong. To say that, I'd have to know what's beyond, if anything, and obviously I can't know that. But I do suspect that the belief that there's something beyond is simply a matter of human ego. As you say, who wants to believe that life was was essentially random and that when we die, that's it?

What does it mean that something is "not scientific"?

Science hasn't discovered it yet?
Its existence contradicts established scientific rules?
Science as it is understood today has no explanation for it?
It's all magic and stuff?

Fm wrote:What does it mean that something is "not scientific"?

Science hasn't discovered it yet?
Its existence contradicts established scientific rules?
Science as it is understood today has no explanation for it?
It's all magic and stuff?

Welcome to Philosophy of Science. Theres loads of good Philosophical theories about what makes something scientific. Can't really tell you much more though since I didn't take it as a module.

Well ok. So stop me if I'm being naive, but stuff can't be not scientific. Science is everything. Our understanding of it can be wrong or incomplete, but it strives to explain everything. If we find something that breaks the rules, that just means the rules are wrong and need to be re-examined. You can't just say something isn't scientific as justification for it not making any sense.

Logically then there is much more reason for Christians continuing life en masse than there is Atheists doing the same.

No they would just like to think there is. The plain truth is that we are a simple by-product of atmospherics, chemicals and the physical balance of this rock.

It's hard for people to come to terms with but it's best to just accept it. The reason to raise a family even though you know it will all end is because nature dictates you should just like every other creature does. Insects that live only a day reproduce and nothing else as that is what their evolution has dictated.


If people want to believe in a higher power then that is fine by me, luckily for them there is no disappointment after death.

Fm wrote:Well ok. So stop me if I'm being naive, but stuff can't be not scientific. Science is everything. Our understanding of it can be wrong or incomplete, but it strives to explain everything. If we find something that breaks the rules, that just means the rules are wrong and need to be re-examined. You can't just say something isn't scientific as justification for it not making any sense.

Well I guess thats one way of looking at it but I doubt you'll find manyy Scientists accepting creationism as scientific or indeed my theroy that ants are Martian refugees.

To add to that I guess you could just say they are simply really gooseberry fool scientific theories but to entertain the notion that theories like that, which are not even ground in logic are as scientific as say the laws of gravity apart frrom their being wrong seems ridiculous. However like said i'm not well read on the subject.

I don't believe in a god or gods, and over the last few years my belief in everything supernatural has fallen apart like a wet cake.

For example, I used to believe in heaven. Now I don't. There's nothing after we die. I can handle that.

TheTurnipKing wrote: As you say, who wants to believe that life was was essentially random and that when we die, that's it?

Me.

I don't think there will be some great reunion in heaven with family members and I don't think that there is a being that guides us in mysterious ways, I also don't think there is a soul that carries on as in reincarnation. when you die that is it. all that is left behind is a rotting hunk of meat and memories.

If people cant deal with that then fine they can hang on to their fairy dreams of an afterlife but don't push that happy ever after bullshit on me and mine, life is a shitter and death isn't any different.

Xeno wrote:

TheTurnipKing wrote: As you say, who wants to believe that life was was essentially random and that when we die, that's it?

Me.

I don't think there will be some great reunion in heaven with family members and I don't think that there is a being that guides us in mysterious ways, I also don't think there is a soul that carries on as in reincarnation. when you die that is it. all that is left behind is a rotting hunk of meat and memories.

If people cant deal with that then fine they can hang on to their fairy dreams of an afterlife but don't push that happy ever after bullshit on me and mine, life is a shitter and death isn't any different.

Count me in for that. Although, if it comforts people to think otherwise, then that's up to them.

Mr Plough wrote:To add to that I guess you could just say they are simply really gooseberry fool scientific theories but to entertain the notion that theories like that, which are not even ground in logic are as scientific as say the laws of gravity apart frrom their being wrong seems ridiculous. However like said i'm not well read on the subject.

Well it only applies to real things. Obviously any old thing you can make up isn't necessarily scientific.

Any Vardy writing is a distinctly average summary designed for revision purposes for the A Level student. Okay for an over view of some of the main topics, but not at all insightful. It's a book of essays an A Level student could do.

Mr Plough wrote:

Fm wrote:Well ok. So stop me if I'm being naive, but stuff can't be not scientific. Science is everything. Our understanding of it can be wrong or incomplete, but it strives to explain everything. If we find something that breaks the rules, that just means the rules are wrong and need to be re-examined. You can't just say something isn't scientific as justification for it not making any sense.

Well I guess thats one way of looking at it but I doubt you'll find manyy Scientists accepting creationism as scientific or indeed my theroy that ants are Martian refugees.

I think he means more in the way that science is the progressive search to understand the workings of nature, not that any crackpot theories are science if they use scientific language (as the ID chaps seem to think).

The God hypothesis has failed due to a complete lack of evidence. Indeed, right this second there's a World Service show about how self replicating RNA has been made in a lab and evolution observed to be taking place - giving good evidence that the very, very basic building blocks of RNA (which is like DNA but only half a strand and is still very much a part cells now - but are almost certainly the precursor for DNA evolution) does behave as the theory of evolution predicts. Blimey ... I mean ... science is just so awesome, we're scurrying little DNA carrying machines evolved to fit a niche of intelligence among an amazingly diverse but tiny, tiny rocky planet spinning around a giant gas ball among trillions of different stars. I'm so amazingly awestruck by it - and by the theories backed by evidence our evolved minds have come up with - why aren't religious people?

You know, when I really think about it to myself, I guess I am terrified of death. I know that one day (the worst part is that it could happen at any time - it could happen within the next minute!) I won't exist. My brain will cease to function, wiping my thoughts/dreams/memories and my entire consciousness. Forever. I will never, ever exist again and I won't even know it! Then I think "hey, I won't know about it so it won't matter!" but the fact is that I know about it now, and it scares the gooseberry fool out of me.

It's not like I walk around all day pooping my little panties; it's only if I really take a few minutes out to think deeply about it, but I think that a fear of death is natural. Hopefully, I'll reach my nineties and get bored of life, embracing death as a welcome relief. But for now, I strawberry floating love it and I don't want to waste a minute of it. What the strawberry float am I doing posting on an Internet forum to people I don't even know? Oh God, hang on, no, I don't believe in God. Who do I turn to now?

Mind Crime wrote:You know, when I really think about it to myself, I guess I am terrified of death. I know that one day (the worst part is that it could happen at any time - it could happen within the next minute!) I won't exist. My brain will cease to function, wiping my thoughts/dreams/memories and my entire consciousness. Forever. I will never, ever exist again and I won't even know it! Then I think "hey, I won't know about it so it won't matter!" but the fact is that I know about it now, and it scares the gooseberry fool out of me.

It's not like I walk around all day pooping my little panties; it's only if I really take a few minutes out to think deeply about it, but I think that a fear of death is natural. Hopefully, I'll reach my nineties and get bored of life, embracing death as a welcome relief. But for now, I strawberry floating love it and I don't want to waste a minute of it. What the strawberry float am I doing posting on an Internet forum to people I don't even know? Oh God, hang on, no, I don't believe in God. Who do I turn to now?

Heh, indeed. In the dark of night, trying to imagine the endless nothingness of death ... scary. But if anything this wants me to make things better, leave something of myself in the world once I'm gone. And enjoy life, there's only one and we're all victims of our human failings so try not to make it worse inside our own mind.