The Terrorism Discussion Thread

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Lotus
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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Lotus » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:02 pm

SilentRight wrote:What I don't understand is, if this guy was a petty criminal and known to police, why was he even in the country? Here if you are not a citizen and commit a crime it's pretty much an instant deportation.

Unfortunately we're far more relaxed about things like that over here, and I'd imagine Germany's the same.

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captain red dog
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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by captain red dog » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:04 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:A lot has been said about how difficult these kind of lone-wolf, single fighter vehicle attacks are to defend against - and now a quote from the suspect himself has been uncovered, posted on social media, talking about the previous lorry attacks in France and how 2 meter tall people are very small targets to hit.

"It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters."

:lol: 10/10

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Karl
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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Karl » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:09 pm

Lotus wrote:
SilentRight wrote:What I don't understand is, if this guy was a petty criminal and known to police, why was he even in the country? Here if you are not a citizen and commit a crime it's pretty much an instant deportation.

Unfortunately we're far more relaxed about things like that over here, and I'd imagine Germany's the same.

I don't think it's necessarily so unfortunate to not deport asylum seekers for minor crimes. What if they were facing death back home? Of course something like shoplifting is definitely wrong but is it "kicking them back into a warzone" or "forcing a gay man to go back to a place that hangs gay people" wrong? It could amount to a death penalty.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Rightey » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:47 pm

Karl's brother is dead wrote:
Lotus wrote:
SilentRight wrote:What I don't understand is, if this guy was a petty criminal and known to police, why was he even in the country? Here if you are not a citizen and commit a crime it's pretty much an instant deportation.

Unfortunately we're far more relaxed about things like that over here, and I'd imagine Germany's the same.

I don't think it's necessarily so unfortunate to not deport asylum seekers for minor crimes. What if they were facing death back home? Of course something like shoplifting is definitely wrong but is it "kicking them back into a warzone" or "forcing a gay man to go back to a place that hangs gay people" wrong? It could amount to a death penalty.


If you are in such a situation why are you going around stealing? Unless you are starving, which in a modern country like Germany is near impossible, why would you be going around commiting pretty crimes? These are grown adults, and if they know they face danger back home they will certainly know to be on their best behaviour.

The one thing I would be worried about is the potential for abuse that could lead to assylum seekers being bullied with threats of accusations of theft or the like, but I don't think the UK or Germany or any country should put up with just allowing criminals to stay. There has to be an ideal medium.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Karl » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:32 pm

Well I think that the practical middle-ground for refugees and asylum seekers is probably to provide the asylum they need while punishing them as appropriate within the bounds of our own legal system.

If they're here on a visa then it might be different, I can see that's more like being a guest in the country and revoking a visa as punishment for a crime seems sensible (depending on the visa and the crime).

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Saint of Killers » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:34 pm

These petty criminal strawberry floats don't give a strawberry float about religion. This attack was an excuse to get back at a state for wanting him out. But I wouldn't be surprised if he left his ID behind on purpose, in the hope news of who he was makes life harder on other non-cunty asylum seekers. Utter bastard.

| (•_•)| S: This is the best date I've been on since my last date. PB: This is not a date.
S: Neither was the last one. It was a robbery. M: Really? S: Yeah. She stole my heart. And my crown. (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by captain red dog » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:57 am

Pretty horrifying news reported by the BBC. The guy was under surveillance for planning an armed robbery, had served 4 years for arson in Italy and had a jail sentence in absentia in Tunisia. He could be anywhere in Schengen now, €100k reward offered, armed and dangerous.

The Schengen agreement, EU wide handling of asylum claims and Merkel's response to the migrant crisis look bloody reckless to be honest.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Rightey » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:40 am

captain red dog wrote:Pretty horrifying news reported by the BBC. The guy was under surveillance for planning an armed robbery, had served 4 years for arson in Italy and had a jail sentence in absentia in Tunisia. He could be anywhere in Schengen now, €100k reward offered, armed and dangerous.


WTF?! How is that considered petty crime?!

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Moggy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:47 am

SilentRight wrote:
captain red dog wrote:Pretty horrifying news reported by the BBC. The guy was under surveillance for planning an armed robbery, had served 4 years for arson in Italy and had a jail sentence in absentia in Tunisia. He could be anywhere in Schengen now, €100k reward offered, armed and dangerous.


WTF?! How is that considered petty crime?!


Because the original suspect was accused of petty crime, this is a different guy.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Rightey » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:52 am

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:
SilentRight wrote:
captain red dog wrote:Pretty horrifying news reported by the BBC. The guy was under surveillance for planning an armed robbery, had served 4 years for arson in Italy and had a jail sentence in absentia in Tunisia. He could be anywhere in Schengen now, €100k reward offered, armed and dangerous.


WTF?! How is that considered petty crime?!


Because the original suspect was accused of petty crime, this is a different guy.


Ah ok. So is this second guy not an asylum seeker/refugee?

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Moggy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:55 am

captain red dog wrote:Pretty horrifying news reported by the BBC. The guy was under surveillance for planning an armed robbery, had served 4 years for arson in Italy and had a jail sentence in absentia in Tunisia. He could be anywhere in Schengen now, €100k reward offered, armed and dangerous.

The Schengen agreement, EU wide handling of asylum claims and Merkel's response to the migrant crisis look bloody reckless to be honest.


It's posts like that that make you seem right wing. ;)

Schengen is hardly shown to be reckless from this incident. Sure criminals and terrorists are going to take advantage of such things, but you might as well write "Paved roads and the lack of border controls around every city look bloody reckless to be honest". If you want to give up freedom of movement for hundreds of millions because the odd arsehole takes advantage, then you are a coward. And would hand the terrorists a great victory.

Asylum claims in the EU have little to do with this, every country processes asylum seekers in a different way. Italy (I assume) didn't deport him after his jail sentence? Or did they deport him and then he came back into Germany? Either way that is a failing of the police/immigration/security services in Italy and Germany, but hardly a failure of the EU as a whole.

Merkel allowing refugees in is a different question. I'd agree to an extent that allowing people in without checks is reckless, but how many of the 900,000+ refugees taken in by Germany have committed terrorist acts? I think this is the only one. Pretty much a one in a million chance of suffering an attack versus hundreds of thousands dying in Syria or being held in squalid camps?

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Moggy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:06 am

SilentRight wrote:
Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:
SilentRight wrote:
captain red dog wrote:Pretty horrifying news reported by the BBC. The guy was under surveillance for planning an armed robbery, had served 4 years for arson in Italy and had a jail sentence in absentia in Tunisia. He could be anywhere in Schengen now, €100k reward offered, armed and dangerous.


WTF?! How is that considered petty crime?!


Because the original suspect was accused of petty crime, this is a different guy.


Ah ok. So is this second guy not an asylum seeker/refugee?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38396987

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by captain red dog » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:42 am

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:
captain red dog wrote:Pretty horrifying news reported by the BBC. The guy was under surveillance for planning an armed robbery, had served 4 years for arson in Italy and had a jail sentence in absentia in Tunisia. He could be anywhere in Schengen now, €100k reward offered, armed and dangerous.

The Schengen agreement, EU wide handling of asylum claims and Merkel's response to the migrant crisis look bloody reckless to be honest.


It's posts like that that make you seem right wing. ;)

Schengen is hardly shown to be reckless from this incident. Sure criminals and terrorists are going to take advantage of such things, but you might as well write "Paved roads and the lack of border controls around every city look bloody reckless to be honest". If you want to give up freedom of movement for hundreds of millions because the odd arsehole takes advantage, then you are a coward. And would hand the terrorists a great victory.

Asylum claims in the EU have little to do with this, every country processes asylum seekers in a different way. Italy (I assume) didn't deport him after his jail sentence? Or did they deport him and then he came back into Germany? Either way that is a failing of the police/immigration/security services in Italy and Germany, but hardly a failure of the EU as a whole.

Merkel allowing refugees in is a different question. I'd agree to an extent that allowing people in without checks is reckless, but how many of the 900,000+ refugees taken in by Germany have committed terrorist acts? I think this is the only one. Pretty much a one in a million chance of suffering an attack versus hundreds of thousands dying in Syria or being held in squalid camps?

I don't think asking for a Government to govern, sensibly control asylum claims and deport serious criminals is right wing. Merkel's response and the EU response in general was also responsible for deaths in the med remember. We now have a mass murderer armed and dangerous who could be pretty much anywhere in mainland Europe and could even possibly get outside of Europe as there are no secure external borders either.

You sound like the US gun nuts who won't accept that gun controls are necessary. Abolishing borders on paper sounds like the lovely virtuous thing to do, on paper I would support it, but the reality is there are seriously dangerous scumbags out there and we need some kind of defence against it. It doesn't require closing of borders, just some kind of control.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Moggy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:22 am

captain red dog wrote:I don't think asking for a Government to govern, sensibly control asylum claims and deport serious criminals is right wing.


Not necessarily, but it seems to be the main right wing narrative at the moment.

Merkel's response and the EU response in general was also responsible for deaths in the med remember.


Define responsible? Did they go out there and drown people themselves? The only people responsible are the strawberry floaters in ISIS and Assad who has turned his country into a hellhole. European leaders inviting in desperate people does not make them responsible.

We now have a mass murderer armed and dangerous who could be pretty much anywhere in mainland Europe and could even possibly get outside of Europe as there are no secure external borders either.


I am sure we have more than one mass murderer in Europe, the others probably aren't brown enough to cause much of a fuss though.

Would it be better if the mass murderer was only running around a country the size of Germany? Do you think secure borders have ever really stopped people crossing borders? Should we wall off every country to ensure people can't get out?

You sound like the US gun nuts who won't accept that gun controls are necessary. Abolishing borders on paper sounds like the lovely virtuous thing to do, on paper I would support it, but the reality is there are seriously dangerous scumbags out there and we need some kind of defence against it. It doesn't require closing of borders, just some kind of control.


That's the cowards argument again. And there is a vast difference between "EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A GUN!!" and "Europe's internal open borders works well and benefits hundreds of millions, let's not throw things away because we are scared of a few bad people".

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by captain red dog » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:09 pm

Don't conflate border controls with closed borders. Yes people can slip through borders but it is a heck of a lot easier when there are absolutely no controls at all. I think you are wedded to completely open borders in the same way 2nd amendmenters are to open gun ownership. I'm not talking about closing your borders in the same way Hillary didn't want to take away guns. You can have free movement and border controls. Having a 'border' in the UK isn't exactly a massive detriment to anyone who has the right to free movement.

The situation on the continent must be a security nightmare, how on earth they can track suspects is beyond me given some nations, particularly Germany, don't have much in the way of surveillance.

And yes Merkel does bare responsibility for migrant deaths. I didn't see her calling for a managed crossing of migrants over the med. It was just a plain call to come on over with nothing in place to manage it safely or responsibly.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Karl » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:43 pm

What if there were border controls between England and Wales? What about a big secure border around London? You'd still have the right to move through as a UK citizen, so what's the bother?

They obviously wouldn't fly because they would be hugely inconvenient and invasive; wouldn't actually achieve any enhanced security; would damage our economy; and would be ridiculously expensive to enforce. There's nothing magic about a national border that makes those inconveniences less relevant. Border controls in the EU aren't just going to hit people occasionally when they go on holiday -- huge numbers of people live close to a border in the EU and travel across every day as part of their commute.

Clamping down on liberties - like the ability to travel freely, the ability to browse the Internet freely, and so on - makes our lives worse and our countries worse places to live, in return for possibly preventing a tiny number of hypothetical future crimes that might in the indeterminate future be committed by people who... want to make our lives worse and our countries worse places to live. It seems like a bad - and self-defeating - deal to me.

People go "Well, it might annoy hundreds of thousands of people every day and make everyone poorer, but if it saves just one child's life..." but this is clearly nonsense. If we all agreed to wear GPS trackers all the time & put cameras in our houses we would probably save some children's lives -- but the lives we would be giving them would be so shitty you'd have to wonder, what would be the point?

Ultimately I agree with Moggy. If a person is so scared of crime - terrorists or murderers or whatever - that they're willing to violate the liberties of other people to feel safer themself, then they are a selfish coward. Unfortunately 2016 has shown us there are a lot of selfish cowards in the West at the moment.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Cuttooth » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:05 pm

Germany allowing Syrian refugees into the country had zero impact on this attack happening FWIW.

Literally zero.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Moggy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:08 pm

captain red dog wrote:Don't conflate border controls with closed borders.


I didn't mention closed borders.

Yes people can slip through borders but it is a heck of a lot easier when there are absolutely no controls at all.


Obviously.

I think you are wedded to completely open borders in the same way 2nd amendmenters are to open gun ownership. I'm not talking about closing your borders in the same way Hillary didn't want to take away guns. You can have free movement and border controls.


You are comparing two vastly different arguments, attributing points to me that I haven’t made and then saying I am completely wedded to the ideas that you have just made up.

I am in favour of open borders in Europe for a very simple reason, it is beneficial to Europe. Sure some bad people might move from Germany to France but we don’t need to inconvenience millions just because we are scared of a few people. Tighter border controls on Europe’s borders with other states would be far more beneficial than checking passports between Belgium and Luxembourg.


Having a 'border' in the UK isn't exactly a massive detriment to anyone who has the right to free movement.


I’d be pretty pissed off if I had to show a passport when crossing the Severn Bridge just because some people are cowering in fear that a nasty man might travel from Cardiff to Swindon.

The situation on the continent must be a security nightmare, how on earth they can track suspects is beyond me given some nations, particularly Germany, don't have much in the way of surveillance.


Your argument there is less to do with freedom of movement and more of a pro-CCTV one. Public CCTV doesn’t really bother me so I have nothing to argue with there.

And yes Merkel does bare responsibility for migrant deaths. I didn't see her calling for a managed crossing of migrants over the med. It was just a plain call to come on over with nothing in place to manage it safely or responsibly.


I saw a photoshop earlier of Merkel where somebody had put blood all over her hands and face. Lovely.

The responsibility for the crimes that were carried out at the German market rest solely on the perpetrator and (if any) those that radicalised him. Merkel did nothing to encourage this man.

If we are talking about indirect responsibility for the act, then people like Assad and ISIS bare far more responsibility than Merkel for causing the crisis. Blair and Bush have more responsibility for causing the rise of ISIS. The Soviet Union is to blame for invading Afghanistan and radicalising a generation of Muslims. King Richard should never have fought Saladin in the crusades.

Merkel’s “crime” seems to be compassion. It is disgusting that people want to attack her or blame her for people’s deaths when those same people do not seem to want to blame the actual banana split that carried out the murders. One way I look at it is who would be the biggest beneficiary of closing Europe down to outsiders? I’d argue that the people that would love that the most are the extremist right wing and the extremist Muslims. And I would not want to give either group a victory.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by captain red dog » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:32 pm

I don't agree with pictures of Merkel with blood on her hands either. Thats plainly wrong and isn't the type or level of responsibility I am talking about.

She committed an absolutely horrific error in her handling of the migrant crisis which has cost lives in the migrant rush to Germany, inflamed racial tensions and has led to the rise of the right wing in Germany again. You know it's been a strawberry floating disaster when the right wing is on the rise in Germany, something they had eradicated a long time ago. She bares some responsibility for the attack as it happened on her watch with very little it seems to prevent it. She has been in power for eight years so the security blunders fall squarely on her administration. Granted anyone can steal a truck, but this guy should have been deported long ago. There is simply no excuse for the level of blunder here.

And no showing my passport is no big deal going to Wales, I currently have to pay money usually on my credit card that takes longer than flashing my passport. I could avoid it of course by going all up round Gloucester but that really would be one heck of an inconvenience. That's before you even get down to the softer border controls like CCTV, number plate recognition monitoring that crossing.

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PostRe: The Terrorism Discussion Thread: Multiple dead as Lorry ploughs into German Christmas market
by Moggy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:37 pm

We massively disagree on most of these issues and I can't be bothered to keep going round in circles. I will say though that if you think a passport control between England and Wales would be no big deal then you are insane. ;)


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