Before+after punch lands: Twat. Upon landing: That poor Nazi - Alternative suggestions of methods of engagement welcome

Preezy wrote:

Moggy wrote:Nazism is a cancer and it is not going to go away by lovely friendly debates. These are not rational people that will hear your arguments and think “wow, he made a good point! Maybe we should stop the construction of our new death camp!”.

Ok, so going with this line of thought - what's the solution? If these people can't be reasoned or debated with, how do you stop them or remove them from the public discourse? Just lock them all up? Send them to Australia?

I don’t think Australia needs to be made MORE racist.

I am not sure there is a solution in the way you mean. Some people have always been racist and I expect some people will always be racist. We will not solve the issue by ignoring them, we will not solve it by debating them, we will not solve the problem by laughing at them and we will not stop it by punching/fighting/killing them.

Some things just don’t have an answer.

It is damn satisfying to see an advocate of genocide getting punched in the face though.

If punching them is ok, then why not just have them all shot and be done with it. It's just another couple of rungs down the ladder from punching, and it would solve the Nazi problem once and for all, right?

Ronburgundy.jpg

Punching somebody for preaching mass murder or wearing a symbol of mass murder is somewhat different to shooting them.

And no it wouldn’t solve the problem, new Nazis are being born all the time.

I am not a supporter of capital punishment for any crime. But I am not against a literal Nazi getting punched.

I'm shooting the breeze (as our colonial cousins would say) on this one, I don't know what the answer to this Nazi problem is, I'm just throwing gooseberry fool at the wall and seeing what sticks.

There is no answer that would completely eradicate Nazism.

Pre WW2, racism was rife.

During WW2, racism was rife.

Post WW2, racism was rife.

People are banana splits.

We had a nice little spell though when racism was kept to a minimum and Nazis were rightly looked on as scum. It started in the 80s, took off in the 90s and started dying towards the end of the 00s/beginning of the 10s. Political correctness and racial discrimination laws might annoy people, but they were both damn successful in forcing racists to shut the strawberry float up and to hide themselves away in shame. The last 10 years or so have seen a backlash against PC, with far right extremism being fuelled by the financial and political chaos we have seen (sounds familiar to Germany in the 20s/30s….). Hopefully it dies out quickly, if not we might have a lot more Nazis to punch in the near future.

As you enjoyed taking “punch a Nazi” to a more extreme “why not shoot the Nazis”, let me ask a more extreme question back.

How far along the process of Nazification would we have to go before you would accept some violence might be needed? If they march in the streets? If they openly wear Nazi symbols? If they shoot British MPs or run over American protesters? If they start electing politicians? If they win elections? If they seized absolute power? If they started marching people to death camps?

edit: yeah perhaps there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution, take each case as it comes etc.

I’d agree with that.

When did Nazi ideology get boiled down to "I think all non-white people should be killed"?

I have no problem with people who hold Nazi views, and indeed those who act on those views, being dealt with severely- but we exist in a society that has mechanisms for dealing with this. Vigilante justice has always been a dangerous proposal and in this day and age when it is so easy to coordinate witch hunts over the internet I think we need to be very cautious about how excited we get about heading down this route.

OrangeRakoon wrote:.

Ok. Ignoring the vast majority of this (it's rather a shame it came straight after Karl)

Out of interest - can you think of one instance in history where facism was beaten by civilised debate?

Every example I can think of was either through violence or direct action (banning, policie action etc)

Pancake wrote:Will punching Nazis stem the rise of Nazism? Absolutely not.

Yeah making it hard and dangerous for Nazis to organise in public won't have any impact on their appeal

Hexx wrote:

Preezy wrote:I would only ever condone someone punching someone else if it's in self-defence (as in self-defence from actual bodily harm, not the use of offensive, inciteful or hurtful language).

Can't really make it much clearer than that.

Cheers for wading through my badly typed non-sense.

'Self'? Not defense of others then (from actual harm)

Hmm I hadn't actually considered punching somone in the defence of someone else, but I'd extend it to that, sure.

Can I caveat this argument with the disclaimer that I'm a massive hypocrit and I'd gladly punch someone who verbally abused my wife or daughter. I'm not above resorting to baser instincts when it suits me

Also:

Gently-Parted Ringpiece wrote:Preezy's devils avocado argument

I did lol out loud irl life

Hexx wrote:but when it came down to it, his post seemed to be "GroupX are being threatened by thugs with violence, let's hope we can convince the thugs to talk!"

This was not my point. The points are:

1) Let's not encourage thugs to be violent
2) Let's prevent people turning to the thuglife by convincing them it's a bad thing

Punching someone doesn't really achieve 2 (but it can help the thugs to build a narrative to actually help with their recruitment) and it does the exact opposite of 1

Preezy wrote:

Hexx wrote:

Preezy wrote:I would only ever condone someone punching someone else if it's in self-defence (as in self-defence from actual bodily harm, not the use of offensive, inciteful or hurtful language).

Can't really make it much clearer than that.

Cheers for wading through my badly typed non-sense.

'Self'? Not defense of others then (from actual harm)

Hmm I hadn't actually considered punching somone in the defence of someone else, but I'd extend it to that, sure.

Can I caveat this argument with the disclaimer that I'm a massive hypocrit and I'd gladly punch someone who verbally abused my wife or daughter. I'm not above resorting to baser instincts when it suits me

Can't make it any clearer -> Oh wait! I totally can!

But seriously - when do you get involved then? (and I know this is still putting a lot on you - but you're the one who's admitted there's a line )

When it's clear there's going to be violence? When there's been violence to stop more?

Shouting "blacks go home!" at a person - No
Shouting "I'm gonna punch you filthy *****" - ???
Shouting "I'm gonna punch you filthy *****" and in the wind up to throw a punch -???
Shouting "I'm gonna punch you filthy *****" and punches being thrown person can't defend themselves obviously? - ???
Punching person down on the floor, unconscious? Yes

OrangeRakoon wrote:

Moggy wrote:All those rational debates about why racism is bad has led to them now being brave enough to wave Nazi flags and wave Nazi armbands in public. It has led to the resurgence of Nazi-like parties in Germany and a probable white supremacist sympathiser in the White House of the USA.

Really? Rational debates about why racism is bad are what have led to open support for Nazism and white supremacists? Please explain.

I think you are misunderstanding my post there.

Rational debate hasn’t led to people turning to Nazism, but it is never going to stop Nazism. Being a Nazi is not a rational thing, it cannot be combatted by a rational list of facts.

What rational debates have done is allow them to spread as their vile views stopped being looked at in horror and disgust and it gave them a platform to spread their bullshit.

Rather than saying “Nazis are dicks, strawberry float off out of this debate”, racists were allowed on TV to tell lies and spread hatred, often with no decent comebacks being made. If you stick a charismatic arsehole like Farage on Question Time (and he was on there a lot!) then his views spread as angry and disaffected people watching think “Wow, Nigel is a man of the people and he said that stopping immigration will make my life better!”. It doesn’t matter what the other panellists say in response, the seed of “immigrants make my life worse” is very quickly planted in the brains of those susceptible to such things.

I’m not saying that Farage shouldn’t be allowed freedom of speech, but rational debate does not work with such a character.

Jenuall wrote:
I have no problem with people who hold Nazi views, and indeed those who act on those views,

Sigged.

Jenuall wrote:When did Nazi ideology get boiled down to "I think all non-white people should be killed"?

Probably about the same time that the Nazis started marching "inferior" people to death camps.

Although that ideology really started when the head Nazi wrote a book about his "struggle".

OrangeRakoon wrote:

Hexx wrote:but when it came down to it, his post seemed to be "GroupX are being threatened by thugs with violence, let's hope we can convince the thugs to talk!"

This was not my point. The points are:

1) Let's not encourage thugs to be violent
2) Let's prevent people turning to the thuglife by convincing them it's a bad thing

Punching someone doesn't really achieve 2 (but it can help the thugs to build a narrative to actually help with their recruitment) and it does the exact opposite of 1

Fair enough didn't pick up you meant more generically in-discussion (other than thinking you weren't dealing with the real world, but you were looking at a different situation)

Still disagree - thugs don't need any help to build a narrative as history shows.

But then nothing you've said actually cover any sort of effective approach to dealing with the immediate "problem" (in the punch/don't punch sense) of a racist, possibly if not clearly, violent thug in front of you?

I'd rather the law applies and deals with everyone equally. Who determines if this guy is a Nazi or is suffering from a serious mental illness? Who decides where to draw the line on what is deemed Nazi behaviour, do they have to be wearing an armband? Is it just racial hatred that deserves a punch? How many punches are acceptable? Should everyone punch them?

That's why we don't allow vigilantes to be running around taking the law into their own hands. Fortunately we have laws in the UK to deal with Nazi cretins. Anyone shouting racist abuse should be dealt with in a court of law. And comparing these fools to Nazi Germany in the 1930s is absolutely laughable.

If you punch anyone like that, it's a crime and you should be prosecuted.

Hexx I'm on my phone now so can't be doing with picking apart your quotes (sorry) but suffice to say I would definitely punch someone if they were having a pop at you.

Preezy wrote:Hexx I'm on my phone now so can't be doing with picking apart your quotes (sorry) but suffice to say I would definitely punch someone if they were having a pop at you.

Fair enough

(You wouldn't need to as I'd have popped them first since my 'pop threshold' seem to be lower than yours...but your meaningless gesture is appreciated.

I'd leave you to it if someone had a go at you. I know it's what you'd want )

Moggy wrote:

Jenuall wrote:When did Nazi ideology get boiled down to "I think all non-white people should be killed"?

Probably about the same time that the Nazis started marching "inferior" people to death camps.

Although that ideology really started when the head Nazi wrote a book about his "struggle".

Yes but those inferior people who were marched to their death were not all under then classification "non-white". There is a whole lot more that is wrong with the shit-storm that is Nazi-ism than "I think all non-white people should be killed".

captain red dogcaptain red dog wrote:That's why we don't allow vigilantes to be running around taking the law into their own hands. Fortunately we have laws in the UK to deal with Nazi cretins. Anyone shouting racist abuse should be dealt with in a court of law.

Exactly. There is always a degree of fuzziness in some areas of how this works (i.e. should you physically detain someone whilst you wait for the police? Are you in your rights to use violence to defend yourself or others? etc.) but ultimately the role of the public should be to inform the police of transgressions and allow the appropriate authority to deal with it.

Albear wrote:

Jenuall wrote:
I have no problem with people who hold Nazi views, and indeed those who act on those views,

Sigged.

Yeah - that sentence was always ripe for some selective quotation! For the sake of clarity the full quote was: "I have no problem with people who hold Nazi views, and indeed those who act on those views, being dealt with severely"

Hexx wrote:Out of interest - can you think of one instance in history where facism was beaten by civilised debate?

Every example I can think of was either through violence or direct action (banning, policie action etc)

Define "beaten". I'm certain that in part I am so strongly opposed to facism from having studied history at school, from having learnt about the holocaust, from having experienced civilised debate. Not that I would have become a facist without those things - who is to judge how much impact varying factors such as moral character, upbringing, etc. have on such things - but it's certainly a factor in my distaste for the ideology. I'm sure I'm not alone.

Moggy wrote:I think you are misunderstanding my post there.

Rational debate hasn’t led to people turning to Nazism

I mean, that is literally what you said, so I'm glad we have qualified that.

Moggy wrote:What rational debates have done is allow them to spread as their vile views stopped being looked at in horror and disgust and it gave them a platform to spread their bullshit.

Rather than saying “Nazis are dicks, strawberry float off out of this debate”, racists were allowed on TV to tell lies and spread hatred, often with no decent comebacks being made.

But now I think I know what point you're getting at. I think you're equating a different, more specific thing with all "rational debate". I'm not talking about inviting radicalised fringe groups onto TV to give them a platform - I'm talking about countering their views where they are made known (with decent comebacks, of course), and qualifying the correct statement of "Nazis are dicks" with a convincing list of reasons why.

Hexx wrote:Fair enough didn't pick up you meant more generically in-discussion (other than thinking you weren't dealing with the real world, but you were looking at a different situation)

Still disagree - thugs don't need any help to build a narrative as history shows.

But then nothing you've said actually cover any sort of effective approach to dealing with the immediate "problem" (in the punch/don't punch sense) of a racist, possibly if not clearly, violent thug in front of you?

The existing thugs don't need any help to build a narrative, but they will certainly use it if you give it to them. The better that narrative is, the more effective it will be in drawing in a wider audience. To be specific with how I think punching someone in the street could be used, that can be spun as "look we're being physically attacked just for voicing our opinions!" With no context that's something people will immediately be sympathetic towards. They'll spin a narrative too if someone just debates them in the street, but it's going to be a less sympathetic one - and one that immediately puts into the spotlight the specific views they were spouting along with some counter arguments.

As for the immediate problem of being confronted with abuse on the street, the answer is to always prioritise your personal safety and the safety of those around you. Starting a fight by throwing a punch is a good way of getting beat up, stabbed or worse. Trying to argue with someone who is clearly violent is also a bad idea. The best thing to do is de-escalate (which may just be to ignore), and in situations where the person is persistent or violent, call the police and have them dealt with through the law - which is what it exists for. Having witnesses and potentially recordings (provided they don't antagonise the situation unduly) would be ideal. That's me thinking about what I'd do in the situation or advise someone to do in the situation, and it's got little to do with ideology - it's all just about personal safety.

Jenuall wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Jenuall wrote:When did Nazi ideology get boiled down to "I think all non-white people should be killed"?

Probably about the same time that the Nazis started marching "inferior" people to death camps.

Although that ideology really started when the head Nazi wrote a book about his "struggle".

Yes but those inferior people who were marched to their death were not all under then classification "non-white". There is a whole lot more that is wrong with the shit-storm that is Nazi-ism than "I think all non-white people should be killed".

Assuming you class Jews and Slavs as white, then the definition of “non-white” didn’t really make much sense in 1920s/1930s/1940s Germany. There were so few non-white people that they didn’t even register on the Nazis agenda, other than as potential slave labour if they won the war and took Africa.

I don’t doubt for a second that the modern Nazis will be adding Black and Asian people to the list along with the Jews.

I don’t know if you mistyped that last sentence, but I’d agree there is a lot wrong with Nazism, but I’d disagree there are worse things in Nazism than killing non-whites. The killing of “inferior” races is probably my biggest problem with Fascists. I’m not so fussed on their policy of autobahns and trains running on time.

Irene Demova wrote:

Pancake wrote:Will punching Nazis stem the rise of Nazism? Absolutely not.

Yeah making it hard and dangerous for Nazis to organise in public won't have any impact on their appeal

"Excuse me, I'm just off to punch an ideology in the face, that'll teach it"

OrangeRakoon wrote:I mean, that is literally what you said, so I'm glad we have qualified that.

It literally wasn't.

Moggy wrote:Rational debate hasn’t led to people turning to Nazism

Moggy wrote:All those rational debates about why racism is bad has led to them now being brave enough to wave Nazi flags and wave Nazi armbands in public. It has led to the resurgence of Nazi-like parties in Germany and a probable white supremacist sympathiser in the White House of the USA.

[/quote]

My post didn't say it turned people to Nazism, it said debating them made them seem like a legitimate voice. That then leads to their message getting out there. Which leads to new Nazis.

But I am glad we have clarified it.

But now I think I know what point you're getting at. I think you're equating a different, more specific thing with all "rational debate". I'm not talking about inviting radicalised fringe groups onto TV to give them a platform - I'm talking about countering their views where they are made known (with decent comebacks, of course), and qualifying the correct statement of "Nazis are dicks" with a convincing list of reasons why.

I wasn't talking about radicalised fringe groups either. The recent spate of nationalists/racists/Nazis (Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Wilders, Milo, Katie Hopkins etc etc) are not small radicalised fringe groups.

And countering those views has not been very successful has it?

Gently-Parted Ringpiece wrote:Sorry, I didnt mean that lefties should put boots on the ground and punch all the nazis. I was trying to counter Preezy's devils avocado argument and Jawa/OR's well meaning de-escalation.

Punching everybody you dont agree with isnt going to get you anywhere unless you like punching and being punched a lot. A few reprehensible dickwads getting a slap here and there I have an easier time digesting.

Long and short of it - you cant slap every banana split but a few banana splits being slapped is gonna happen and will probably wake a few banana splits up (on both sides), but you cant sit at your desk and tug your collar and ask the banana splits mobilised in the streets to maybe not mobilise and be nice to people with different skin colours. Ya dig?

Unrelated, but Mama Said Knock You Out just started on my random playlist.

I dig.