Brexit Thread 2

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

How would you vote if we had to vote again?

Leave
2
2%
Remain
83
98%
 
Total votes: 85
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:19 am



:lol:

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Karl
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Karl » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:22 am

Moggy wrote:
Karl wrote:Culturally we are so heavily influenced by the US - people seem to typically think we are closer to them than we are to the EU (I don't think that's necessarily true, but it seems to have become more true over the last couple of years) - and I think if they go, we'll go. And unfortunately if their literal concentration camps are anything to go by they're most of the way there. Maybe the US will pull it back, boot out this prick at the next election and get a progressive, competent leader in next. Maybe that will heal them culturally, give a stronger voice to reasonable people and send the racist, hateful sphinctoids scuttling back under their rocks. If they don't - if we actually exist in the horrible universe where they decide "yeah, the Republicans are fine, more of that please" - then we'll be next, living under the soft, flabby, blue-veined fists of tosspots like Johnson or Rees-Mogg for a generation while the Daily Mail splatters its rancid diarrhoea into our gaping mouths forever.


It shows the success of propaganda that I read all of that and still can’t help thinking “yeah but it is America, they would never do such things!”

And I think that despite knowing the stats on innocent black people being shot by police. Despite knowing the ethnic makeup of their prisons. Despite knowing that just over 50 years ago (a tiny tiny amount of time) they had segregation. Despite knowing about Japanese-American internment 75 years ago.

The “Land of the Free” propaganda is very powerful, even for people who know that America has never been properly free. And it’s that propaganda that lets somebody like Trump do this sort of gooseberry fool, after all it couldn’t happen in America, could it?

And if this gooseberry fool can happen in America, then it can easily happen here where we are far more entrenched in a class system that teaches us deference to our “betters”.


Totally agreed. Particularly interesting point about their propaganda and self-image -- I think Americans have historically idolised the concept & implementation of liberal democracy, but they have also simplistically equated that with AMERICA!!!, and now there are huge numbers of people there that simply idolise AMERICA!!! no matter what it does. It's a particularly dumb and insipid form of patriotism.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:36 am

Karl wrote:Totally agreed. Particularly interesting point about their propaganda and self-image -- I think Americans have historically idolised the concept & implementation of liberal democracy, but they have also simplistically equated that with AMERICA!!!, and now there are huge numbers of people there that simply idolise AMERICA!!! no matter what it does. It's a particularly dumb and insipid form of patriotism.


Americans have done that for years, but I think it is interesting how that propaganda works on non-American bleeding heart liberals as well. As much as I can see what is happening, there is a very large part of me that can’t help thinking that America is good and would never turn full Nazi. I know it is bullshit, I know that America has done terrible things (even before Trump), but that propaganda is powerful.

I think we were all complacent and thought that the world was only going to get better. The racism and murderous tyrants that have plagued human history were either a thing of the past, or something that only happens in third world nations. Women got the vote, equal rights for black people were passed, gay rights were taking massive leaps forward, America got a black President – the world was moving forward and getting better and better.

We forgot that the horrors of the past were not that long ago. Nazi death camps are still within living memory and are not something that could never happen again, a financial downturn here and a populist demagogue there and suddenly it doesn’t seem all that ridiculous that the world could fall backwards.

And (to stay on topic ;) ) post Brexit Britain will be right there behind the US, because we need that strawberry floating trade deal.

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Photek
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Photek » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:43 am

Moggy wrote:
We forgot that the horrors of the past were not that long ago. Nazi death camps are still within living memory and are not something that could never happen again, a financial downturn here and a populist demagogue there and suddenly it doesn’t seem all that ridiculous that the world could fall backwards.

Hitler rose to power after the great depression, the continuing similarities with Trump are startling.

If may rescinded Trump's invitation to visit the UK would that not boost her standing amongst the EU leaders?

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:44 am

Photek wrote:
Moggy wrote:
We forgot that the horrors of the past were not that long ago. Nazi death camps are still within living memory and are not something that could never happen again, a financial downturn here and a populist demagogue there and suddenly it doesn’t seem all that ridiculous that the world could fall backwards.

Hitler rose to power after the great depression, the continuing similarities with Trump are startling.


And they both have terrible haircuts. :shock:

Trump is only a gooseberry fool moustache away from declaring himself Fuhrer.

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Garth
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Garth » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:51 pm


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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:52 pm




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Lagamorph's Underwater Photography Thread
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Garth
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Garth » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:44 pm


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Garth
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Garth » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:08 pm


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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Squinty » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:46 pm

Seems like more fudge.

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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by lex-man » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:30 pm

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 07561.html

It looks like Brexit is going to go on longer.

Brexit would have to be delayed unless a deal is struck by the end of the year because the European Parliament will run out of time to vote on it, MPs have been told.

Guy Verhofstadt, the parliament’s Brexit coordinator, said it needed to begin scrutinising any agreement at least three months before exit day – which is March 29 next year.

Asked to give the deadline for a deal, he replied: “Before the end of the year. That is the ultimate date, otherwise we cannot be assured to have a vote in plenary in March.”

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:43 pm



:fp:

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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by lex-man » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:44 pm

Moggy wrote:

:fp:



I can't believe they've forced him to do that.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:45 pm

lex-man wrote:
Moggy wrote:

:fp:



I can't believe they've forced him to do that.


It was after they defeated the rebellion as well.

banana splits.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Squinty » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:52 pm

So rebellion quelled. So much for that then.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:03 pm

Squinty wrote:So rebellion quelled. So much for that then.


It’s like in Star Wars if they saw the Death Star and just said “strawberry float it, let’s go home”.

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Cuttooth » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:47 pm

Moggy wrote:Americans have done that for years, but I think it is interesting how that propaganda works on non-American bleeding heart liberals as well. As much as I can see what is happening, there is a very large part of me that can’t help thinking that America is good and would never turn full Nazi. I know it is bullshit, I know that America has done terrible things (even before Trump), but that propaganda is powerful.

I think we were all complacent and thought that the world was only going to get better. The racism and murderous tyrants that have plagued human history were either a thing of the past, or something that only happens in third world nations. Women got the vote, equal rights for black people were passed, gay rights were taking massive leaps forward, America got a black President – the world was moving forward and getting better and better.

We forgot that the horrors of the past were not that long ago. Nazi death camps are still within living memory and are not something that could never happen again, a financial downturn here and a populist demagogue there and suddenly it doesn’t seem all that ridiculous that the world could fall backwards.

And (to stay on topic ;) ) post Brexit Britain will be right there behind the US, because we need that strawberry floating trade deal.

Societies in Britain and the United States have similar fundamental problems in an unwillingness to address the role white supremacy and slavery has continually played in both countries being prosperous nations. There's a notion that the historical crimes from centuries ago have no continued relevance in modern times. The freedoms declared for all people of America as part of its independence were only possible by making an underclass of slaves that couldn't be recognised as equal to a superior white race. These freedoms and founding principles are still held up with the highest regards in terms of national identity. I found it strange when Confederate statues and monuments were being torn down that an argument against it was "Well Washington held slaves, should his monuments be torn down?!" and it's like, well yeah maybe American society actually should re-evaluate the unquestionable revererence given to those people!

Britain made huge profits off the transatlantic slave trade and continued slavery of Indians even after the official abolition of slavery.

When Tony Blair apologised for the British Empire's role in the transatlantic slave trade some people (even liberally minded people) simply argued that the British descendants today couldn't be held responsible and we should just move on because things are significantly more equal now. This attitude both dismisses the impact of slavery on the descendants of those people held in servitude and suggests the intervening years ran smooth for race relations. The reality is the beliefs and culture that allowed slavery to happen are still deeply ingrained within society, and therefore tolerated when they shouldn't be. We're all probably guilty at some point in our lives of letting a bigoted comment from a relative slide because "they grew up in different times" or not saying anything if a friend suggests different ethnicities are more prone to criminality than others (specifically, white British).

We'll probably look back at this time in history and wonder why anyone thought the election of a black president meant white supremacy was dead, just like how everything was obviously ok after civil rights laws were passed, or how everything was ok once slavery was abolished.

The United States is on the cusp of outright fascism and everything is poised for Britain and other western countries to very easily follow suit.

Anyway in Brexit news, those Tory rebels got taken for mugs two weeks in a row. :fp:




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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:45 pm


Lagamorph's Underwater Photography Thread
Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by lex-man » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:55 pm

Lagamorph wrote:


Well this sucks.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Squinty » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:51 pm

Moggy wrote:
Squinty wrote:So rebellion quelled. So much for that then.


It’s like in Star Wars if they saw the Death Star and just said “strawberry float it, let’s go home”.


They are the shittiest Luke Skywalkers ever.


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