Brexit Thread 2

[Photek]

[Garth]

So no leadership challenge from Boris, just an attack on May's White Paper:

twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1019588352687984641

[Jenuall]

Would Caroline Lucas marry Jacob Rees-Mogg as a big strawberry float you to those damn Irish Catholics?

I remind you that this is The Worst Timeline and anything is possible.

I remind you that this isn’t the worst timeline and that there is a timeline out there where Prime Minister Oswald Mosley joined the German Reich in 1940 and in 2016 President Alex Jones signed a non-aggression pact with Reich Chancellor Farage.

At least there would be an obvious and up front evil to confront in that timeline.

Whilst we may not be in as immediate a horror scenario as that we have to contend with the long drawn out feeling of dread and despair as things slowly slide into a toxic misery that's never quite tangible enough to rally against.

Happy Days!

In a timeline where the third Reich lasted until 2018, I don’t think we would be in any position to be confronting the evil.

Although at least Europe would be united in that timeline.

I bet the trains also run on time.

Every cloud I guess.

One of the key horrors for me personally about our current predicament is the utter rebellion we have witnessed against experts, or even anyone with any degree of knowledge on a subject.

Know what you're talking about? strawberry float off - we don't give a gooseberry fool!

It's like imagining Churchill coming along in the 30s and telling everyone we need to confront the rise of Nazi Germany and the response being - "Sod off, Winston - what the strawberry float do you know?!"

Obviously there was an element of this at the time, but ultimately those with sense and wisdom were listened to. It feels like we're in a position these days where the level of resistance of facts and knowledge is so great that those wishing to win arguments and make decisions based on reasoned and rational debate no longer stand a chance in hell of being listened to.

[Lagamorph]

Lords to the rescue?

twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1019580595381456897

[Moggy]

It's like imagining Churchill coming along in the 30s and telling everyone we need to confront the rise of Nazi Germany and the response being - "Sod off, Winston - what the strawberry float do you know?!"

Obviously there was an element of this at the time, but ultimately those with sense and wisdom were listened to. It feels like we're in a position these days where the level of resistance of facts and knowledge is so great that those wishing to win arguments and make decisions based on reasoned and rational debate no longer stand a chance in hell of being listened to.

That is pretty much exactly what happened to Churchill, right up until the point Hitler invaded Poland.

I agree we are in a dangerous period of mistrust towards experts though. I blame the climate change deniers, that’s where the backlash against experts really seemed to take hold.

[That]

...

One of the key horrors for me personally about our current predicament is the utter rebellion we have witnessed against experts, or even anyone with any degree of knowledge on a subject.

Know what you're talking about? strawberry float off - we don't give a gooseberry fool!

It's like imagining Churchill coming along in the 30s and telling everyone we need to confront the rise of Nazi Germany and the response being - "Sod off, Winston - what the strawberry float do you know?!"

Obviously there was an element of this at the time, but ultimately those with sense and wisdom were listened to. It feels like we're in a position these days where the level of resistance of facts and knowledge is so great that those wishing to win arguments and make decisions based on reasoned and rational debate no longer stand a chance in hell of being listened to.

Absolutely.

Obviously I am being tongue-in-cheek and having some banter with Moggy when I say we're in the worst timeline but what I would say is that some very bad ideas have built up and become accepted in our culture over the last 10 years and I don't think things could have gone much worse over that timescale, maybe a bit worse (the far-right could have made more gains in Europe for instance) but not a lot.

One of the big things to go wrong is this idea that someone who knows more about something than you is an elitist who wants to step on your freedom of expression, and that every opinion is equal so you have to listen to me and give me 'fair' consideration even if my thoughts on the world are a load of bollocks. "Intellectuals" (to use a wanky term) have historically been amongst the first to be targetted as governments become authoritarian.

[Jenuall]

It's like imagining Churchill coming along in the 30s and telling everyone we need to confront the rise of Nazi Germany and the response being - "Sod off, Winston - what the strawberry float do you know?!"

Obviously there was an element of this at the time, but ultimately those with sense and wisdom were listened to. It feels like we're in a position these days where the level of resistance of facts and knowledge is so great that those wishing to win arguments and make decisions based on reasoned and rational debate no longer stand a chance in hell of being listened to.

That is pretty much exactly what happened to Churchill, right up until the point Hitler invaded Poland.

I agree we are in a dangerous period of mistrust towards experts though. I blame the climate change deniers, that’s where the backlash against experts really seemed to take hold.

Yeah, like I said lots of people did try and ignore the warnings at the time, but they did listen in the end.

It feels like every time we have what should be the equivalent of a "invading Poland" moment in Brexit that rather than coming round to the reality of the situation people just entrench themselves further in denial.

Climate change denial is a good call on the rise of mistrust - I can't think of a more high profile instance where so many people just seemed to reject facts in favour of opinion.

[Benzin]

We live in a world where Flat-Earthers, Anti-Vaxxers and the like have platforms to promote their guff to a wide enough audience that are easily swayed by such nonsense...

Sure, some people might have beliefs that they shouldn't do certain things (religious beliefs is completely different kettle of fish, but still dangerous in certain cases), but by word if you believe not letting your kid have a Polio vaccine because some twat on the internet said it might be a root cause to autism and then equally act shocked when Polio is making a come back you deserve to be a disease ridden corpse...

[Jenuall]

...

One of the key horrors for me personally about our current predicament is the utter rebellion we have witnessed against experts, or even anyone with any degree of knowledge on a subject.

Know what you're talking about? strawberry float off - we don't give a gooseberry fool!

It's like imagining Churchill coming along in the 30s and telling everyone we need to confront the rise of Nazi Germany and the response being - "Sod off, Winston - what the strawberry float do you know?!"

Obviously there was an element of this at the time, but ultimately those with sense and wisdom were listened to. It feels like we're in a position these days where the level of resistance of facts and knowledge is so great that those wishing to win arguments and make decisions based on reasoned and rational debate no longer stand a chance in hell of being listened to.

Absolutely.

Obviously I am being tongue-in-cheek and having some banter with Moggy when I say we're in the worst timeline but what I would say is that some very bad ideas have built up and become accepted in our culture over the last 10 years and I don't think things could have gone much worse over that timescale, maybe a bit worse (the far-right could have made more gains in Europe for instance) but not a lot.

One of the big things to go wrong is this idea that someone who knows more about something than you is an elitist who wants to step on your freedom of expression, and that every opinion is equal so you have to listen to me and give me 'fair' consideration even if my thoughts on the world are a load of bollocks. "Intellectuals" (to use a wanky term) have historically been amongst the first to be targetted as governments become authoritarian.

Everyone enjoys a bit of 'worst timeline' banter, no harm in that. But as you say it is truly frightening when you realise the extent to which some of these incredibly bad ideas have become entrenched and normalised within society.

How do you win when your main tools - facts, knowledge, reasoned argument and debate - have been actively eroded and nullified in the face of ignorance? Other than waiting for the path we are taking to have such a catastrophic conclusion that people have no option but to realise their mistake I don't see a solution. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to go through so much pain for people to accept that experts are worth listening to.

[Garth]

twitter.com/Peston/status/1019594403525136384

Duck and cover.

[Tineash]

If they send out leaflets warning people to hoard food & insulin, the government will fall within a week.

[Squinty]

I eagerly await this leaflet through the door.

[Lex-Man]

I eagerly await this leaflet through the door.

It'll give advice on how to move to another country.

[Squinty]

I eagerly await this leaflet through the door.

It'll give advice on how to move to another country.

In Brexit kingdom, no one leaves. We need comrades to farm turnips and potatoes for the empire.

[Cuttooth]

I eagerly await this leaflet through the door.

It'll give advice on how to move to another country.

It'll be used as proof Vote Leave didn't cheat.

[Knoyleo]

I eagerly await this leaflet through the door.

It'll give advice on how to move to another country.

It'll be this leave leaflet with the arrows reversed.

[mysteriousdave]

Feel so powerless and hacked off with the whole process, I've done the only thing I can - write to my MP (Leo Docherty)!!! Mainly around how it's very clear no one has a clue what this process actually entails, and if they are going to be silly enough to push ahead with it at least delay it, do some research and planning, and do it properly (or as properly as possible). Obviously all a bit more eloquent than that, but along those lines.

I'm not holding out much hope for the response.

But overall it really is insane that it seems doing this will be a massive act of self harm to the country, but they just plow on regardless.

Leo Docherty is in the ERG.

Good luck

Yeah I'm pretty much Tory heartland. Previous to him it was Gerald Howarth, only too keen to send scathing and rude responses to perfectly reasonable constituent letters/emails. Then next door we've got Ranil Jayawardena, rumoured to be being groomed as a future party leader...

[Hexx]

God Boris speech. What’s worse is you know how it’ll go down in Gammon world.

We live in a post-truth world and there’s no way out

[Hypes]

God Boris speech. What’s worse is you know how it’ll go down in Gammon world.

We live in a post-truth world and there’s no way out

[Knoyleo]

God Boris speech. What’s worse is you know how it’ll go down in Gammon world.

We live in a post-truth world and there’s no way out

HERESY