Brexit Thread 2

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

How would you vote if we had to vote again?

Leave
12
7%
Remain
159
93%
 
Total votes: 171
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:52 pm

Lagamorph wrote:The Grieve amendment coming back to the commons tomorrow is going to be interesting.
If it fails then we end up with it going back to the Lords and probably being passed and sent back yet again and no progress gets made.
If it passes then there's almost certainly going to be some cabinet resignations and a very real possibility of a No Confidence vote against May. If she loses that then the government essentially collapses and all negotiations get put on hold, and we run the risk of David Davis, Boris or JRM making a leadership bid.


It’ll pass the Commons unless Corbyn decides to actually oppose the Tories.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:57 pm

Moggy wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:The Grieve amendment coming back to the commons tomorrow is going to be interesting.
If it fails then we end up with it going back to the Lords and probably being passed and sent back yet again and no progress gets made.
If it passes then there's almost certainly going to be some cabinet resignations and a very real possibility of a No Confidence vote against May. If she loses that then the government essentially collapses and all negotiations get put on hold, and we run the risk of David Davis, Boris or JRM making a leadership bid.


It’ll pass the Commons unless Corbyn decides to actually oppose the Tories.


I think you wont pass?
Or is Laga meaning that.
One of you surely means that.

In the end it'll come down to the Tory Rebels. They were remarkably easily bought off last time - but at the same time May's REALLY pissed them off.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:59 pm

Hexx wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:The Grieve amendment coming back to the commons tomorrow is going to be interesting.
If it fails then we end up with it going back to the Lords and probably being passed and sent back yet again and no progress gets made.
If it passes then there's almost certainly going to be some cabinet resignations and a very real possibility of a No Confidence vote against May. If she loses that then the government essentially collapses and all negotiations get put on hold, and we run the risk of David Davis, Boris or JRM making a leadership bid.


It’ll pass the Commons unless Corbyn decides to actually oppose the Tories.


I think you wont pass?
Or is Laga meaning that.
One of you surely means that.

In the end it'll come down to the Tory Rebels. They were remarkably easily bought off last time - but at the same time May's REALLY pissed them off.


Yeah I meant won’t.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lex-Man » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:08 pm

Are there enough Tory rebels to actually defeat the government?

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:09 pm

lex-man wrote:Are there enough Tory rebels to actually defeat the government?


Yeah.

But then you might get some Labour Rebels as well to counter act it.

May et al were certainly worried about being defeated before.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Squinty » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:19 pm



:fp:

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:27 pm

Squinty wrote:

:fp:


Lawson is such a banana split. :lol:

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:34 pm

lex-man wrote:Are there enough Tory rebels to actually defeat the government?

Only if Labour aren't forced to abstain by Corbyn.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:06 pm

twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1009120648961015808


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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by KK » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:28 pm

Brexit row: GCHQ chief stresses UK's role in foiling European terror plots

Jeremy Fleming’s comments can be seen as riposte to EU threats to end UK access to security databases

Britain supplied key information to help break up terrorist operations in four European countries in the last year, one of its intelligence chiefs revealed on Tuesday, as the UK upped the ante in the growing row over post-Brexit security.

The director of the surveillance agency GCHQ, Jeremy Fleming, speaking on a visit to Nato headquarters, also stressed other European countries had benefited from classified intelligence shared by the UK on cyber-threats.

His comments can be seen as a direct riposte to EU chiefs threatening to exclude Britain from access to EU security databases and from Galileo, an alternative surveillance system to GPS, which was built for the US military.

It is unprecedented for a UK intelligence chief, especially one from GCHQ who until recently were seldom seen or heard in public, to intervene in a diplomatic negotiation in such a way.

Only hours earlier, Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, in a speech in Vienna, warned that after the UK left the union it would not be involved in the European arrest warrant or the decision-making boards of Europol, or have access to EU databases after Brexit.

At the end of discussions at Nato headquarters, Fleming told reporters: “This visit comes at a pivotal time of course as the UK leaves the EU and as we agree a treaty on security to ensure that the UK and EU member states continue to work together to keep us all secure in the future.”

He insisted that after Brexit, the UK would continue to work with EU and EU member states, saying: “We have excellent relationships with intelligence and security agencies across the continent.”

In a departure from past GCHQ policy of never discussing operational material, he made a point of how much other European countries had benefited from access to UK intelligence. “For example, we’ve played a critical role in the disruption of terrorist operations in at least four European countries in the past year. Those relationships, and our ability to work together, save lives. That will continue after Brexit, for the benefit of the UK and our partners across Europe.”

When Theresa May placed security on the table at the start of Brexit negotiations in May last year, she alarmed the heads of UK intelligence, who saw her the next day to secure a promise security would not be used as a bargaining counter. Fleming’s intervention may reflect dismay that EU chiefs such as Barnier have opted to turn it into one.

The UK shares intelligence bilaterally with France, Germany and other countries. That relationship is valued in Europe partly because GCHQ is one of the biggest surveillance agencies in the world but mainly because it is so closely intertwined with the US National Security Agency. The other two UK intelligence services, MI6 and MI5, also help counterparts elsewhere in Europe, and benefit in return.

These bilateral relationships will survive. The debate is over the UK’s continued access to specific European institutional intelligence-sharing, much of it police-related.

In his remarks to journalists, Fleming stressed the importance of GCHQ as a global leader on cybersecurity, including its shopwindow, the National Cyber Security Centre.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-brexit

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:29 pm

"We're useful! Honest! Really! Please don't leave us out of the club!"

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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Squinty » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:33 am

Brexit and Trump prove we are in the darkest of timelines. World needs saved from this madness.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:38 am

His comments can be seen as a direct riposte to EU chiefs threatening to exclude Britain from access to EU security databases and from Galileo, an alternative surveillance system to GPS, which was built for the US military.


I love how Britain choosing to leave the EU gets turned into “EU chiefs threatening”. :slol:

And that’s from the Guardian, we are truly strawberry floated if even the left leaning papers are now using such language.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:40 am

Squinty wrote:Brexit and Trump prove we are in the darkest of timelines. World needs saved from this madness.


I don’t think we are in the darkest of timelines. Our one is pretty bad, but there is a timeline out there where Brexit and Trump happened and on top of that Le Pen won the French election and Wilders won the Dutch election.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Squinty » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:41 am

Moggy wrote:
Squinty wrote:Brexit and Trump prove we are in the darkest of timelines. World needs saved from this madness.


I don’t think we are in the darkest of timelines. Our one is pretty bad, but there is a timeline out there where Brexit and Trump happened and on top of that Le Pen won the French election and Wilders won the Dutch election.


I don't know, I'm a very pessimistic person by nature, but it feels like we are at the start of a very long downward slope.

I've also been reading 1984 again, and I'm starting to see many parallels between that world and this one. Its depressingly accurate.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:50 am

Squinty wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Squinty wrote:Brexit and Trump prove we are in the darkest of timelines. World needs saved from this madness.


I don’t think we are in the darkest of timelines. Our one is pretty bad, but there is a timeline out there where Brexit and Trump happened and on top of that Le Pen won the French election and Wilders won the Dutch election.


I don't know, I'm a very pessimistic person by nature, but it feels like we are at the start of a very long downward slope.

I've also been reading 1984 again, and I'm starting to see many parallels between that world and this one. Its depressingly accurate.


Oh it is all bad, I just think it might have been worse if France and the Netherlands had also fallen.

The optimist in me is thinking that this is the last hurrah of the dark forces of the past. They will strawberry float up so badly that it will finally kill off the old prejudices and horrors that humanity keeps putting itself through.

The pessimist in me thinks we are all strawberry floated.

I kind of alternate between the two viewpoints.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lex-Man » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:53 am

Moggy wrote:
Squinty wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Squinty wrote:Brexit and Trump prove we are in the darkest of timelines. World needs saved from this madness.


I don’t think we are in the darkest of timelines. Our one is pretty bad, but there is a timeline out there where Brexit and Trump happened and on top of that Le Pen won the French election and Wilders won the Dutch election.


I don't know, I'm a very pessimistic person by nature, but it feels like we are at the start of a very long downward slope.

I've also been reading 1984 again, and I'm starting to see many parallels between that world and this one. Its depressingly accurate.


Oh it is all bad, I just think it might have been worse if France and the Netherlands had also fallen.

The optimist in me is thinking that this is the last hurrah of the dark forces of the past. They will strawberry float up so badly that it will finally kill off the old prejudices and horrors that humanity keeps putting itself through.

The pessimist in me thinks we are all strawberry floated.

I kind of alternate between the two viewpoints.


I'm worried that by strawberry floating up they'll force us down a worse past as people decide they want the security fascism offers.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:04 am

lex-man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Squinty wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Squinty wrote:Brexit and Trump prove we are in the darkest of timelines. World needs saved from this madness.


I don’t think we are in the darkest of timelines. Our one is pretty bad, but there is a timeline out there where Brexit and Trump happened and on top of that Le Pen won the French election and Wilders won the Dutch election.


I don't know, I'm a very pessimistic person by nature, but it feels like we are at the start of a very long downward slope.

I've also been reading 1984 again, and I'm starting to see many parallels between that world and this one. Its depressingly accurate.


Oh it is all bad, I just think it might have been worse if France and the Netherlands had also fallen.

The optimist in me is thinking that this is the last hurrah of the dark forces of the past. They will strawberry float up so badly that it will finally kill off the old prejudices and horrors that humanity keeps putting itself through.

The pessimist in me thinks we are all strawberry floated.

I kind of alternate between the two viewpoints.


I'm worried that by strawberry floating up they'll force us down a worse past as people decide they want the security fascism offers.


Yeah there is a risk of fascism spreading. And I can’t see who would be able to stop it if America and Britain fell to it. Russia would probably be a willing partner, China wouldn’t give a gooseberry fool as long as we were still spending. Who else could step in?

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by That » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:51 am

Culturally we are so heavily influenced by the US - people seem to typically think we are closer to them than we are to the EU (I don't think that's necessarily true, but it seems to have become more true over the last couple of years) - and I think if they go, we'll go. And unfortunately if their literal concentration camps are anything to go by they're most of the way there. Maybe the US will pull it back, boot out this prick at the next election and get a progressive, competent leader in next. Maybe that will heal them culturally, give a stronger voice to reasonable people and send the racist, hateful sphinctoids scuttling back under their rocks. If they don't - if we actually exist in the horrible universe where they decide "yeah, the Republicans are fine, more of that please" - then we'll be next, living under the soft, flabby, blue-veined fists of tosspots like Johnson or Rees-Mogg for a generation while the Daily Mail splatters its rancid diarrhoea into our gaping mouths forever.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:04 am

Karl wrote:Culturally we are so heavily influenced by the US - people seem to typically think we are closer to them than we are to the EU (I don't think that's necessarily true, but it seems to have become more true over the last couple of years) - and I think if they go, we'll go. And unfortunately if their literal concentration camps are anything to go by they're most of the way there. Maybe the US will pull it back, boot out this prick at the next election and get a progressive, competent leader in next. Maybe that will heal them culturally, give a stronger voice to reasonable people and send the racist, hateful sphinctoids scuttling back under their rocks. If they don't - if we actually exist in the horrible universe where they decide "yeah, the Republicans are fine, more of that please" - then we'll be next, living under the soft, flabby, blue-veined fists of tosspots like Johnson or Rees-Mogg for a generation while the Daily Mail splatters its rancid diarrhoea into our gaping mouths forever.


It shows the success of propaganda that I read all of that and still can’t help thinking “yeah but it is America, they would never do such things!”

And I think that despite knowing the stats on innocent black people being shot by police. Despite knowing the ethnic makeup of their prisons. Despite knowing that just over 50 years ago (a tiny tiny amount of time) they had segregation. Despite knowing about Japanese-American internment 75 years ago.

The “Land of the Free” propaganda is very powerful, even for people who know that America has never been properly free. And it’s that propaganda that lets somebody like Trump do this sort of gooseberry fool, after all it couldn’t happen in America, could it?

And if this gooseberry fool can happen in America, then it can easily happen here where we are far more entrenched in a class system that teaches us deference to our “betters”.


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