Brexit Thread 2

[Herdanos]

To be clear - I'm not saying that the opinions of the people who live somewhere now shouldn't be a significant contributing factor in terms of what gets decided is done with that specific somewhere. What I am saying, though, is that it doesn't justify the actions taken to get to the status quo, and that in situations where peoples have been displaced, replaced, removed, or deliberately demographically distorted, then maybe we should consider historical actions in a modern, don't-be-the-Galactic-Empire-from-Star-Wars context, whereby the pain and suffering inflicted upon smaller nations by tyrannical empires should be recognised and considered as a factor to correct if we're looking for the most peaceable, morally just solution.

Gibraltar has been part of Britain for hundreds of years. Just under 99% of the population want to remain part of Britain.

You’d have a point if Britain had invaded it 50 years ago or if the population was somewhat split. But after 300 years and with overwhelming local support for Britain?

Sure. I'm honestly not advocating that we hand the place over, though I'm aware my posts last night probably came across a little like that!

But it is worth pointing out that Gibraltar is 30k people approximately and they (like any group of voters) will vote to be British as long as it suits them. With the catastrophe of Brexit looming I could see a future co-sovereignty deal struck to allow for things like open borders, free movement etc. (Otherwise living there may become untenable for many) much like there is (meant to be, though the Tories have forgotten) in NI.

My original point is perhaps it will be a good thing in the long run if the UK gets a good stem international kicking, if it means our ridiculous superiority complex disappears with our reputation. (Again: here I am simply clutching at straws to find positives in the overwhelming negative that is Brexit.)

After all, as someone who doesn't care about nationalism; ultimately it doesn't matter who rules Gibraltar, so long as it is ruled well, and in the best interests of its people. (I'm aware that because of nationalism they will vote to remain in the UK.)

[Moggy]

To be clear - I'm not saying that the opinions of the people who live somewhere now shouldn't be a significant contributing factor in terms of what gets decided is done with that specific somewhere. What I am saying, though, is that it doesn't justify the actions taken to get to the status quo, and that in situations where peoples have been displaced, replaced, removed, or deliberately demographically distorted, then maybe we should consider historical actions in a modern, don't-be-the-Galactic-Empire-from-Star-Wars context, whereby the pain and suffering inflicted upon smaller nations by tyrannical empires should be recognised and considered as a factor to correct if we're looking for the most peaceable, morally just solution.

Gibraltar has been part of Britain for hundreds of years. Just under 99% of the population want to remain part of Britain.

You’d have a point if Britain had invaded it 50 years ago or if the population was somewhat split. But after 300 years and with overwhelming local support for Britain?

Sure. I'm honestly not advocating that we hand the place over, though I'm aware my posts last night probably came across a little like that!

But it is worth pointing out that Gibraltar is 30k people approximately and they (like any group of voters) will vote to be British as long as it suits them. With the catastrophe of Brexit looming I could see a future co-sovereignty deal struck to allow for things like open borders, free movement etc. (Otherwise living there may become untenable for many) much like there is (meant to be, though the Tories have forgotten) in NI.

My original point is perhaps it will be a good thing in the long run if the UK gets a good stem international kicking, if it means our ridiculous superiority complex disappears with our reputation. (Again: here I am simply clutching at straws to find positives in the overwhelming negative that is Brexit.)

After all, as someone who doesn't care about nationalism; ultimately it doesn't matter who rules Gibraltar, so long as it is ruled well, and in the best interests of its people. (I'm aware that because of nationalism they will vote to remain in the UK.)

I don’t care about nationalism at all. But I do care about people and think that people should have a say in their futures. It doesn’t matter if there are 30k people there or 300million there, they have the right to decide for themselves who rules them.

With 99% of Gibraltarians wanting to remain part of Britian I don’t see anything shaking their views, no matter how bad Brexit gets.

I honestly think that Britain’s main problem is its overinflated sense of importance which comes from having had a big empire in the 19th century and from winning WW2 (with a little help from the Americans and Russians ). A kicking on the world stage might help deflate that ego a bit, but the trouble is we will all have to live through it and the poor in this country will end up starving. All while hard right politicians steal our rights and freedoms and tell everyone that it is the fault of the EU for bullying us.

[NickSCFC]

twitter.com/Staedtler/status/1052610596359692288

I wonder what the results of a border poll would be if one were held today.

I remember reading a while back about how Ireland will inevitably reunify due to an increasing Catholic majority in the north.

[Moggy]

I wonder what the results of a boarder poll would be if one were held today.

The result would be exactly the same, all they want are hot meals, a hot shower and a comfortable bed for a reasonable price.

[Garth]

Email to Tory MPs:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/stat ... 0283025408

[Garth]

twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1052672124576509953

They always seem to be able to find the magic money tree when they want to.

twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1052660704493412352

David Davis?! lol!

[Moggy]

twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1052672124576509953

She’s so so close there to realising the truth, but it just sailed over her head.

You are right Nadine that we are not funding the police and UC properly. Wouldn’t it be better to not lose billions of pounds by being outside of the EU and having to pay tariffs on goods?

[Moggy]

twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1052660704493412352

David Davis?! lol!

No more stalling! Lets have an interim leader!



And David Davies can negotiate? Did she miss the last couple of years when he did literally strawberry float all in a job where all he had to do was negotiate?

Is she really that strawberry floating stupid or is this some performance art piece?

[Garth]

twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1052899987695329281

[Moggy]

twitter.com/bart_owl/status/1052220786021474305

[Garth]

twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1052938104322121728

[Moggy]

Who says the German’s don't have a sense of humour?

[Garth]

Ouch (I've put this through Google translate):

How a nation makes a fool of itself
No nation has cultivated arrogance as much as the British. The sad truth is that what was once a world power is today a country that can not even find its way to the door without stumbling over its own feet.

In his book "We Germans" Matthias Matussek describes an evening in the German Embassy in London. The ambassador has invited in honor of the novelist Antonia S. Byatt. Matussek toast to the writer, whereupon she surprises him with the question of what he thinks of the European constitution. Alas, the journalist replies that it is probably okay if the European community of states agree on a few basic principles.

Her heavily ringed hand remains hovering over the plate for a while, then Lady Byatt says: "You know, we British do not need constitutions, we are the oldest democracy on earth." Pause. "For young nations like you Germans, however, constitutions may have their uses." Matussek writes that one can not describe the tone of the tone in which it was made, as if it were nasal and pejorative enough. "In principle, she said: You are barbarians, you have just laid the club out of hand, you need the curb."

That's how we know the British , that's how we love them. Never an embarrassed answer and always ready to put someone in his place, as it is descriptive on the island. The problem is, if you act as if you are the navel of the world, you should also be the navel or at least get close to it. As it looks, the British are not even the worm appendage of Europe.

The United Kingdom is showing us how to make you a fool in front of everyone, in a spectacular way. What was once the most powerful empire in the world today is a country that does not even manage to find its way to the door without tripping over its own feet.

It is now 28 months since the British decided to say goodbye to the European Union. Unfortunately, they have not come one step further.

When Theresa May comes up with a suggestion in Brussels, one can be sure that one day later he will no longer be worth the paper he is written down on. Either she presents ideas that have long since been rejected in Brussels. Or their plans are already shelved in their own party. Or Boris Johnson did it in his column in the Telegraph.

Until recently, I felt pity when I saw the head of the British government hopping through the picture at a summit, with her wry smile and even more slippery offers. Meanwhile, I find myself thinking, "Go with God, but go!"

No deal is better than a bad deal? If they are convinced in the UK: then it must be so. A hard Brexit will cost us a lot, no question. But that's nothing compared to what the British are expecting.

Among my colleagues , I have read what the golden future they promised the citizens in London. First, the trucks stow up to Wales, because at the borders nothing works. Then at the gas stations, the fuel goes out and in the hospitals, the drugs are scarce. At home threatens the water damage: Since all Polish plumbers were driven out of the country, unfortunately, no one comes over to repair the lines when the toilet overflows.

So they sit there in their dripping houses, without gasoline and aspirin, but with extremely bad-tempered Russians as neighbors, who have shopped for too much money in the English real estate market and are now stinking, because their investment goes down the drain , We know how uncomfortably bad-tempered Russians can become, dear Englishmen: on the other hand, every drug shortage is a joke!

Almost all those who have a say in Brexit belong to the British establishment, that is, they went to a sinful school and studied at Cambridge or Oxford . In this respect too, one is now richer by one experience. What, for God's sake, do you learn there? At any rate, skills that prepare you for the real world can not be. Or would you trust a lawyer who regularly goes into negotiations so unprepared that the appointment must be canceled after a few minutes?

You just have to get involved in Mrs. May's speech flow at any point, and you realize that you can even be Prime Minister without any connection to reality.

Journalist: If we leave the EU without a deal, does not that mean that we will have a hard border in Ireland?

May: We said very clearly that we do not want to see a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Journalist: But if we go without a deal, you can not guarantee that there's no hard border, right?

May: We're working to make a good deal.

Journalist: But if we leave without a deal, there will be a border in Ireland, right?

May: If we go without a deal, we as the British Government will do our utmost to ensure that there is no hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Journalist: But you will ultimately fail, because according to WTO rules, there will inevitably be a border. Should not you charge that and explain the person?

May: As the British Government, we are determined to do everything we can to ensure that there is no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

And so on. The downside of intelligence is that it hurts to be stupid. Simplicity protects against this pain, so intelligent people are often inferior to stupid people in politics.

We do not want to be unfair. We owe the British the afternoon tea, Monty Python and the Beatles , that's more than many peoples have achieved in their history. Also, they have the Queen , which is a reason for a monarchist-minded person like me to admire the kingdom. Any nation, one might add, faces decay at some point in its history - one slower, the other faster.

The fact that the British are now faster rather than slower may be related to the insularity that is so vehemently defended by the Brexiteers. I have never understood how to get the idea that a people are best left alone. If you want to know what centuries of inbreeding can do, you just have to look across the English Channel. In this respect too, Brexit holds a valuable lesson for all those who dream of an end to European freedom of movement.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 33936.html

[Garth]

twitter.com/CharlieCooper8/status/1052926305971236866

twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1052947126794276864

[Garth]

twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1052934318413234176

twitter.com/Peston/status/1052936939576455169

[captain red dog]

The peoples vote campaign needs to ditch Blair. He is one of the biggest components that will turn people away from it. He is hated by Tories just as much as he is hated by the left of Labour. I support the people's vote concept but I'll have nothing to do with it if Blair continues campaigning.

If Blair backs anything, generally people are going to turn against it. He needs to either go away quietly or present himself to The Hague and stand trial for the murderous war criminal that he is.

Edit: Tusk is an absolute clown for using the "final solution" phrase. It's just a term that can and should be easily avoided.

[Moggy]

The peoples vote campaign needs to ditch Blair. He is one of the biggest components that will turn people away from it. He is hated by Tories just as much as he is hated by the left of Labour. I support the people's vote concept but I'll have nothing to do with it if Blair continues campaigning.

If Blair backs anything, generally people are going to turn against it. He needs to either go away quietly or present himself to The Hague and stand trial for the murderous war criminal that he is

Is Blair part of any official campaign or just speaking about another referendum?

It’s mad to stop supporting another referendum just because somebody you don’t like supports it. It’s either a good idea or not.

[Moggy]

Edit: Tusk is an absolute clown for using the "final solution" phrase. It's just a term that can and should be easily avoided.

This?

twitter.com/peston/status/1052936939576455169

I can’t see what’s wrong with that. Saying “final solution” only becomes wrong when used in certain contexts, the two words being used together don’t automatically mean Nazis.

[Photek]

Edit: Tusk is an absolute clown for using the "final solution" phrase. It's just a term that can and should be easily avoided.

I think he’s entitled to use that phrase, this says more about you than Tusk tbh.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

Are we going to see a world where we stay in an extended transition period for years and years meaning that the only difference to pre Brexit will be that we don’t get a rebate?