Brexit Thread 2

[Cuttooth]

twitter.com/Staedtler/status/1052610596359692288

[Squinty]

twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1052536474560806913

[Garth]

British accusing others of divide and rule...oh my days...

It's the UK that put the open border in Ireland and the GFA under threat with the decision to leave the EU in the first place, and their continual can kicking on this very real issue won't solve the problem. Ireland is an EU member trying to keep their border with the north open and the GFA intact with the backing of their EU allies, while the UK government dithers for years and still can't come to an agreement amongst themselves.

And let's not forget NI voted to stay in the EU too.

[Garth]

twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1052605066434281478

twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1052620893837393920

[Garth]

Just listened to Simon Coveney (our deputy PM) who was on BBC 4 this morning. He tore John Humphries to shreds with simple facts.

Particular highlight was Humphries saying "Boris johnson says Ireland are being unrelastic" and Coveneys response was "who gives a f***" basically.

Starts just over 2 hours 10 minutes in:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0000qks

[Rex Kramer]

"Meaningful vote" was always open to abuse, it means absolutely nothing.

[Garth]

twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1052631057324011527

[Cuttooth]

twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1052632946962825223

Why would she even bother?

[Garth]

twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1052645851368214528

twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1052649582000332800

twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/1052646012127535112

[<]:^D]

silly beggars?

[Herdanos]

Whilst I am 100% pro remain, I am now thinking of the long term good that might come out of Brexit (straw clutching I know). Perhaps it's for the best that our stupid nation takes a good kicking in international terms. The last remnants of our ill-gotten empire - I'm thinking northern Ireland and Gibraltar at this point given that no one lived on the Falklands when the English showed up - will go back into rightful possession and morons like the Tories will no longer be able to trot out nonsense to a brainwashed nation unjustifiably convinced of their global superiority. The way the government have dealt with Ireland during this process has made being British a universal embarrassment.

No chance with Gibraltar, they are massively pro Britain.

I could see Northern Ireland rejoining the Republic though and possibly Scottish independence.

Yeah self determination is a pretty big deal. If the people of Gibraltar (and anywhere similar like the Falklands) want to remain British then under what right and/or mechanism are they to "go back into rightful possession"?

I agree to an extent. Gibraltar is part of Spain though. I mean, it literally is. It's connected to the landmass that constitutes Spain. Were it not for the fact that we decided it was ours, and we were the toughest bully on the playground back in an era where it was still considered progressive to free your slaves when you died, then the fact that Gibraltar is in Spain would not be contested.

Self determination is interesting though because when we're using it to settle disputes that are centuries old it's worth considering the context of those centuries. Yes, the people living in Gibraltar now want to remain as part of the overall British empirical hangover. But they are people we've put there, because we've had the power to do that, and that's a power that we've gained but not necessarily through justifiable means for a justifiable reason. The Falklands are different, because there was no one there to displace and they are a seperate geographical entity disconnected from any other inhabited landmass.

Russia has done similar things for centuries - it deliberately moved citizens to areas it wanted to claim as its own, which now gives itself a legitimate justification to claim control over those areas. China has done the same and continues to do so. It's essentially long term political engineering. We've done it in Northern Ireland so as to eventually justify our continued uninvited occupation of the northernmost part of the island of Ireland. And now we have Unionists who've grown up from the families of British citizens deliberately placed in the north by Britain for that very purpose.

[Herdanos]

To be clear - I'm not saying that the opinions of the people who live somewhere now shouldn't be a significant contributing factor in terms of what gets decided is done with that specific somewhere. What I am saying, though, is that it doesn't justify the actions taken to get to the status quo, and that in situations where peoples have been displaced, replaced, removed, or deliberately demographically distorted, then maybe we should consider historical actions in a modern, don't-be-the-Galactic-Empire-from-Star-Wars context, whereby the pain and suffering inflicted upon smaller nations by tyrannical empires should be recognised and considered as a factor to correct if we're looking for the most peaceable, morally just solution.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

Whilst I am 100% pro remain, I am now thinking of the long term good that might come out of Brexit (straw clutching I know). Perhaps it's for the best that our stupid nation takes a good kicking in international terms. The last remnants of our ill-gotten empire - I'm thinking northern Ireland and Gibraltar at this point given that no one lived on the Falklands when the English showed up - will go back into rightful possession and morons like the Tories will no longer be able to trot out nonsense to a brainwashed nation unjustifiably convinced of their global superiority. The way the government have dealt with Ireland during this process has made being British a universal embarrassment.

No chance with Gibraltar, they are massively pro Britain.

I could see Northern Ireland rejoining the Republic though and possibly Scottish independence.

Yeah self determination is a pretty big deal. If the people of Gibraltar (and anywhere similar like the Falklands) want to remain British then under what right and/or mechanism are they to "go back into rightful possession"?

I agree to an extent. Gibraltar is part of Spain though. I mean, it literally is. It's connected to the landmass that constitutes Spain. Were it not for the fact that we decided it was ours, and we were the toughest bully on the playground back in an era where it was still considered progressive to free your slaves when you died, then the fact that Gibraltar is in Spain would not be contested.

Self determination is interesting though because when we're using it to settle disputes that are centuries old it's worth considering the context of those centuries. Yes, the people living in Gibraltar now want to remain as part of the overall British empirical hangover. But they are people we've put there, because we've had the power to do that, and that's a power that we've gained but not necessarily through justifiable means for a justifiable reason. The Falklands are different, because there was no one there to displace and they are a seperate geographical entity disconnected from any other inhabited landmass.

Russia has done similar things for centuries - it deliberately moved citizens to areas it wanted to claim as its own, which now gives itself a legitimate justification to claim control over those areas. China has done the same and continues to do so. It's essentially long term political engineering. We've done it in Northern Ireland so as to eventually justify our continued uninvited occupation of the northernmost part of the island of Ireland. And now we have Unionists who've grown up from the families of British citizens deliberately placed in the north by Britain for that very purpose.

The problem is where do you start and stop with what you are describing about Gibraltar and Spain? Literally hundreds of countries around the world only exist because someone won a war or power struggle and took land off another state or settlement. It’s the way human civilisation has been for thousands of years.

I would say personally that as Gibraltar has existed for a few hundred years now it should just stay as it is with the people having a right to self determination. The same for Spain’s own possessions in Morocco (Ceuta and Melilla).

[Jenuall]

Whilst I am 100% pro remain, I am now thinking of the long term good that might come out of Brexit (straw clutching I know). Perhaps it's for the best that our stupid nation takes a good kicking in international terms. The last remnants of our ill-gotten empire - I'm thinking northern Ireland and Gibraltar at this point given that no one lived on the Falklands when the English showed up - will go back into rightful possession and morons like the Tories will no longer be able to trot out nonsense to a brainwashed nation unjustifiably convinced of their global superiority. The way the government have dealt with Ireland during this process has made being British a universal embarrassment.

No chance with Gibraltar, they are massively pro Britain.

I could see Northern Ireland rejoining the Republic though and possibly Scottish independence.

Yeah self determination is a pretty big deal. If the people of Gibraltar (and anywhere similar like the Falklands) want to remain British then under what right and/or mechanism are they to "go back into rightful possession"?

I agree to an extent. Gibraltar is part of Spain though. I mean, it literally is. It's connected to the landmass that constitutes Spain. Were it not for the fact that we decided it was ours, and we were the toughest bully on the playground back in an era where it was still considered progressive to free your slaves when you died, then the fact that Gibraltar is in Spain would not be contested.

Self determination is interesting though because when we're using it to settle disputes that are centuries old it's worth considering the context of those centuries. Yes, the people living in Gibraltar now want to remain as part of the overall British empirical hangover. But they are people we've put there, because we've had the power to do that, and that's a power that we've gained but not necessarily through justifiable means for a justifiable reason. The Falklands are different, because there was no one there to displace and they are a seperate geographical entity disconnected from any other inhabited landmass.

Russia has done similar things for centuries - it deliberately moved citizens to areas it wanted to claim as its own, which now gives itself a legitimate justification to claim control over those areas. China has done the same and continues to do so. It's essentially long term political engineering. We've done it in Northern Ireland so as to eventually justify our continued uninvited occupation of the northernmost part of the island of Ireland. And now we have Unionists who've grown up from the families of British citizens deliberately placed in the north by Britain for that very purpose.

True, it is a complex scenario where there are often no easy answers. History is awash with invasions, territorial claims and disputes and the borders of "who owns what" have always been fluid. Yes Gibraltar is part of the landmass that is Spain, but so are lots of other things - should Portugal be given over to Spain because it happens to exist within the same coastal extremity that marks out Spain? Obviously not and for lots of good reasons, but how do you decide who has the best claim to something? What point in time do we define as the geographical boundary epoch and say "all land that was part of nation X on date Y shall be returned to it"? The Phoenicians "owned" vast amounts of southern Spain in ancient times, including what is now Gibraltar, should Spain give it back to them? (Obviously not as they don't exist anynore but hopefully you get the point)

Coming to a fair and rational decision on these matters is always going to be fraught with danger. Which is why, imperfect though it undoubtedly is for many reasons including those you state, self determination is probably the best option we have right now.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

Whilst I am 100% pro remain, I am now thinking of the long term good that might come out of Brexit (straw clutching I know). Perhaps it's for the best that our stupid nation takes a good kicking in international terms. The last remnants of our ill-gotten empire - I'm thinking northern Ireland and Gibraltar at this point given that no one lived on the Falklands when the English showed up - will go back into rightful possession and morons like the Tories will no longer be able to trot out nonsense to a brainwashed nation unjustifiably convinced of their global superiority. The way the government have dealt with Ireland during this process has made being British a universal embarrassment.

No chance with Gibraltar, they are massively pro Britain.

I could see Northern Ireland rejoining the Republic though and possibly Scottish independence.

Yeah self determination is a pretty big deal. If the people of Gibraltar (and anywhere similar like the Falklands) want to remain British then under what right and/or mechanism are they to "go back into rightful possession"?

I agree to an extent. Gibraltar is part of Spain though. I mean, it literally is. It's connected to the landmass that constitutes Spain. Were it not for the fact that we decided it was ours, and we were the toughest bully on the playground back in an era where it was still considered progressive to free your slaves when you died, then the fact that Gibraltar is in Spain would not be contested.

Self determination is interesting though because when we're using it to settle disputes that are centuries old it's worth considering the context of those centuries. Yes, the people living in Gibraltar now want to remain as part of the overall British empirical hangover. But they are people we've put there, because we've had the power to do that, and that's a power that we've gained but not necessarily through justifiable means for a justifiable reason. The Falklands are different, because there was no one there to displace and they are a seperate geographical entity disconnected from any other inhabited landmass.

Russia has done similar things for centuries - it deliberately moved citizens to areas it wanted to claim as its own, which now gives itself a legitimate justification to claim control over those areas. China has done the same and continues to do so. It's essentially long term political engineering. We've done it in Northern Ireland so as to eventually justify our continued uninvited occupation of the northernmost part of the island of Ireland. And now we have Unionists who've grown up from the families of British citizens deliberately placed in the north by Britain for that very purpose.

True, it is a complex scenario where there are often no easy answers. History is awash with invasions, territorial claims and disputes and the borders of "who owns what" have always been fluid. Yes Gibraltar is part of the landmass that is Spain, but so are lots of other things - should Portugal be given over to Spain because it happens to exist within the same coastal extremity that marks out Spain? Obviously not and for lots of good reasons, but how do you decide who has the best claim to something? What point in time do we define as the geographical boundary epoch and say "all land that was part of nation X on date Y shall be returned to it"? The Phoenicians "owned" vast amounts of southern Spain in ancient times, including what is now Gibraltar, should Spain give it back to them? (Obviously not as they don't exist anynore but hopefully you get the point)

Coming to a fair and rational decision on these matters is always going to be fraught with danger. Which is why, imperfect though it undoubtedly is for many reasons including those you state, self determination is probably the best option we have right now.

I was actually just reading up about the Phoenicians, sounds like they came from an area that is now part of Greece. Clearly we should give Gibraltar back to Greece instead

[Moggy]

To be clear - I'm not saying that the opinions of the people who live somewhere now shouldn't be a significant contributing factor in terms of what gets decided is done with that specific somewhere. What I am saying, though, is that it doesn't justify the actions taken to get to the status quo, and that in situations where peoples have been displaced, replaced, removed, or deliberately demographically distorted, then maybe we should consider historical actions in a modern, don't-be-the-Galactic-Empire-from-Star-Wars context, whereby the pain and suffering inflicted upon smaller nations by tyrannical empires should be recognised and considered as a factor to correct if we're looking for the most peaceable, morally just solution.

Gibraltar has been part of Britain for hundreds of years. Just under 99% of the population want to remain part of Britain.

You’d have a point if Britain had invaded it 50 years ago or if the population was somewhat split. But after 300 years and with overwhelming local support for Britain?

[Garth]

twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1052812479728893952

[Squinty]

Honestly, if nothing is sorted by next month, I'm gonna start to stock up on goods.

The fact that a country, in peace time, is doing this still completely baffles me. But fish and blue passports.

[Moggy]

twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1052818678687784960

[andretmzt]

The Falkland Islands can strawberry float off. Massively subsidised. Cries to the UK any time Argentina rattles it sabre. Tells the UK to sod off any time the UK asks it to do something. The local government has a hand in monopolies on the island that just serve to strawberry float the military over. And want Argentinians to visit their dead relatives who have finally been identified after 35+ years? 'Nope we don't really'. banana splits. banana splits the lot of them.

Lovely place though, worth a visit. Not for more than 6 months though eh Curls.