Buying a house (and renting)

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pjbetman
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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by pjbetman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:09 am

Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.



No. The paperwork isn't in place, clearly. What Bido said is correct.

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Partridge Iciclebubbles
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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:09 am

Lagamorph wrote:Can you not call them on your mobile and just download a free call recording app? That's what I did when I had a complaint with Virgin Media a few years ago so that I had evidence of everything they promised me.


Which one did you use?

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Sleighamorph » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:12 am

Moggy wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:Can you not call them on your mobile and just download a free call recording app? That's what I did when I had a complaint with Virgin Media a few years ago so that I had evidence of everything they promised me.


Which one did you use?

It was "Auto Call Recorder" from the Google Play store.

Alternatively, if you need to use a landline, you could just put it on speakerphone and record using your phone/PC/laptop, though that would pick up background noise and might not be the best quality.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by pjbetman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:14 am

Green Gecko wrote:
Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

Dual is right, if they manage to obtain a high court writ in the space of time you aren't cooperating or challenging them, you will have to leave at the moment they appear and there is no argument whatsoever. If you don't leave, the police will physically remove you.

So you need to act, as shitty as it is.

I'm with others in that it seems to be (a) a scam (b) a load of gooseberry fool that you can and should fight.

The only advice I can offer are the observations:

You should be able to request proof of the repairs that were carried out, as well as proof of some sort of survey or conveyancing that states the works NEEDED to be carried out, and weren't just carried out because of made up reasons, or because the landlord wanted to do it (that would need a consultation as you have mentioned in the section something process). If there is no proof, and they refuse to provide it, I don't see why you should pay them anything at this time.

Secondly, as far as I am aware, if the party demanding funds is also adding "interest" or "service charges", they are not legally enforceable unless you have signed a contract stating that they are due under certain conditions. A creditor cannot charge interest (other than statutory interest, which is very low) unless they are regulated by the FSC. If they are not regulated by the FSC, then they cannot charge those random sums added every x days or whatever it is. They are 100% bullshit.

So at the very least, you shouldn't be paying all of what they are asking. Perhaps there is some amount that is due, but at the moment, based on what you have said, they can't demand all of this money while they have clearly strawberry floated up various part of the due process. You should pursue the right processes yourself, while getting your ducks in a row, so you can get out from under it, regardless of what you pay in the end. You should do some cashflow forecasting, and look at other accommodation, so that you have a plan to negotiate the situation.

Yes you should get legal advice. They are not acting legally, and so if you ensure you are, you are unlikely to be worse off. As they are more aggressive than you, unfortunately, and they are using multiple entities to pressure you into doing what they want. The emotional toll of handling that entirely yourself, if you have funds to hands, is not worth those funds, in my opinion. It's a shitty situation to be in, but it might get shittier if you don't work with the situation to your advantage, and become a victim. Don't let that happen. It may cost you, but negotiating the situation without the proper information, could hurt you more than financially. You will probably pay/lose some money, but you will be able to move past it.


Come on dude, that is utter bollocks! Jeez, so the police are getting involved in civil cases now? Stop scaremongering Moggy.

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Sleighamorph
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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Sleighamorph » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:17 am

pjbetman wrote:
Green Gecko wrote:
Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

Dual is right, if they manage to obtain a high court writ in the space of time you aren't cooperating or challenging them, you will have to leave at the moment they appear and there is no argument whatsoever. If you don't leave, the police will physically remove you.

So you need to act, as shitty as it is.

I'm with others in that it seems to be (a) a scam (b) a load of gooseberry fool that you can and should fight.

The only advice I can offer are the observations:

You should be able to request proof of the repairs that were carried out, as well as proof of some sort of survey or conveyancing that states the works NEEDED to be carried out, and weren't just carried out because of made up reasons, or because the landlord wanted to do it (that would need a consultation as you have mentioned in the section something process). If there is no proof, and they refuse to provide it, I don't see why you should pay them anything at this time.

Secondly, as far as I am aware, if the party demanding funds is also adding "interest" or "service charges", they are not legally enforceable unless you have signed a contract stating that they are due under certain conditions. A creditor cannot charge interest (other than statutory interest, which is very low) unless they are regulated by the FSC. If they are not regulated by the FSC, then they cannot charge those random sums added every x days or whatever it is. They are 100% bullshit.

So at the very least, you shouldn't be paying all of what they are asking. Perhaps there is some amount that is due, but at the moment, based on what you have said, they can't demand all of this money while they have clearly strawberry floated up various part of the due process. You should pursue the right processes yourself, while getting your ducks in a row, so you can get out from under it, regardless of what you pay in the end. You should do some cashflow forecasting, and look at other accommodation, so that you have a plan to negotiate the situation.

Yes you should get legal advice. They are not acting legally, and so if you ensure you are, you are unlikely to be worse off. As they are more aggressive than you, unfortunately, and they are using multiple entities to pressure you into doing what they want. The emotional toll of handling that entirely yourself, if you have funds to hands, is not worth those funds, in my opinion. It's a shitty situation to be in, but it might get shittier if you don't work with the situation to your advantage, and become a victim. Don't let that happen. It may cost you, but negotiating the situation without the proper information, could hurt you more than financially. You will probably pay/lose some money, but you will be able to move past it.


Come on dude, that is utter bollocks! Jeez, so the police are getting involved in civil cases now? Stop scaremongering Moggy.

Obstructing a High Court enforcement of a High Court writ is a criminal offence that can result in arrest.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by pjbetman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:23 am

Moggy wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
Moggy wrote:
That's not a growth wrote:You need to let them know you're recording at the beginning of the call of you want to use the recording in a legal capacity.


Even if it is only my voice that is being recorded?

I don't think one side of the conversation would be any use as evidence, they can just claim there's no proof it was actually a phone call and not you just talking into a recorder.


True, although I was thinking that a recording on a phone would confirm the date/time of the call and that would verify against the call log which would show their number as well as the date/time/length of call.


You'd treat it like a conference call and name the parties present, ask them to confirm their names. Provide the time and date on the recording and also state that they are being recorded. It's not 100% proof (as it could be anyone on the other line) but in a civil court you only need to have proof 'on the balance of probabilities'.

I'm pretty sure you have the right to record the conversation - even if they refuse to talk, that would mean that they aren't cooperating.

Have they sent any documents to you by recorded delivery or email? Have they sent any to your co-leasees?

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by pjbetman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:28 am

Lagamorph wrote:
pjbetman wrote:
Green Gecko wrote:
Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

Dual is right, if they manage to obtain a high court writ in the space of time you aren't cooperating or challenging them, you will have to leave at the moment they appear and there is no argument whatsoever. If you don't leave, the police will physically remove you.

So you need to act, as shitty as it is.

I'm with others in that it seems to be (a) a scam (b) a load of gooseberry fool that you can and should fight.

The only advice I can offer are the observations:

You should be able to request proof of the repairs that were carried out, as well as proof of some sort of survey or conveyancing that states the works NEEDED to be carried out, and weren't just carried out because of made up reasons, or because the landlord wanted to do it (that would need a consultation as you have mentioned in the section something process). If there is no proof, and they refuse to provide it, I don't see why you should pay them anything at this time.

Secondly, as far as I am aware, if the party demanding funds is also adding "interest" or "service charges", they are not legally enforceable unless you have signed a contract stating that they are due under certain conditions. A creditor cannot charge interest (other than statutory interest, which is very low) unless they are regulated by the FSC. If they are not regulated by the FSC, then they cannot charge those random sums added every x days or whatever it is. They are 100% bullshit.

So at the very least, you shouldn't be paying all of what they are asking. Perhaps there is some amount that is due, but at the moment, based on what you have said, they can't demand all of this money while they have clearly strawberry floated up various part of the due process. You should pursue the right processes yourself, while getting your ducks in a row, so you can get out from under it, regardless of what you pay in the end. You should do some cashflow forecasting, and look at other accommodation, so that you have a plan to negotiate the situation.

Yes you should get legal advice. They are not acting legally, and so if you ensure you are, you are unlikely to be worse off. As they are more aggressive than you, unfortunately, and they are using multiple entities to pressure you into doing what they want. The emotional toll of handling that entirely yourself, if you have funds to hands, is not worth those funds, in my opinion. It's a shitty situation to be in, but it might get shittier if you don't work with the situation to your advantage, and become a victim. Don't let that happen. It may cost you, but negotiating the situation without the proper information, could hurt you more than financially. You will probably pay/lose some money, but you will be able to move past it.


Come on dude, that is utter bollocks! Jeez, so the police are getting involved in civil cases now? Stop scaremongering Moggy.

Obstructing a High Court enforcement of a High Court writ is a criminal offence that can result in arrest.


Now that's a different matter. Obstructing a Bailiff would need to be done forcibly...that's where the police come in. The bailiffs have unrestricted access to your property, you aren't allowed to stop them physically.

Anyway, how the hell are they going to get a HC writ when they haven't even followed the Section 20 procedures (and several others too)?

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Dual
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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Dual » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:30 am

pjbetman wrote:
Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.



No. The paperwork isn't in place, clearly. What Bido said is correct.


It's not clear though. Moggy might have it wrong.

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Partridge Iciclebubbles
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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:36 am

pjbetman wrote:Have they sent any documents to you by recorded delivery or email? Have they sent any to your co-leasees?


We had a little bit of communication via email 4 years ago, it was basically me asking questions and them saying "we are really busy, we will get back to you soon" and then them never getting back to me. That's when I switched to letter writing and was still mostly ignored.

The recorded mail part is important as my lease states the following:

• Clause 7.5.1: Any notice (which includes any communication) to be served by any party to this Lease must be in writing and is deemed properly served if sent by Recorded Delivery or delivery by hand in the case of:-
(A) A company, to the registered office of such company; or
(B) An individual, to the address of such individual
In both cases to the address as stated in this Lease, unless such company or individual has notified the other of any change in the registered office of such company or address of such individual in accordance with the terms of this Clause.


They have never ever issued anything at all recorded delivery or by hand.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:03 am

Well the Citizens Advise Bureau are useless. They have a drop in session from 9.30 to 1pm today and my wife got there just before 9.30 only to be told that all session are fully booked for the day. Unless you get there way before 9am, the sessions tend to fill up.

She’s going to phone a number they gave her and see if she can get any answers on the phone.

strawberry float me this whole thing is a disaster.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:26 am

Dual wrote:
pjbetman wrote:
Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.



No. The paperwork isn't in place, clearly. What Bido said is correct.


It's not clear though. Moggy might have it wrong.


I fully accept that I might have things wrong, I am in no way an expert on these matters. But from what I have looked up the property management company have failed in three key areas.

1. They have not followed the terms of the lease by issuing notices by hand/recorded delivery. The lease states that notices not hand delivered or sent by recorded delivery are not properly served.

2. They have not followed the correction Section 20 consultation process. They did not answer my queries during the first stage and the whole of the second stage was not carried out – they claim it was but as per point 1 above, they have no evidence that they did post it as they didn’t send anything recorded delivery.

3. They have never answered my questions on the “excess” service charges that they have issued (again, they haven’t sent them recorded delivery). Despite many letters and several years passing, they haven’t broken down for me what it is they want me to pay.

I don’t think I am wrong with any of that but I don't want to risk going to court and running up high legal bills plus the risk of losing somehow and having to pay their costs plus the disputed “debt”. The very idea of it terrifies me as I don’t have the money to be able to do it.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Preezy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:32 am

I think it should all stop at point 1. If they haven't issued notices properly then they effectively haven't issued them at all.

Sorry you're having to go through this, Moggy, sounds like a right nightmare :(

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:46 am

Preezy wrote:I think it should all stop at point 1. If they haven't issued notices properly then they effectively haven't issued them at all.

Sorry you're having to go through this, Moggy, sounds like a right nightmare :(


I think it should as well, but I have acknowledged receipt of a lot of the stuff they have issued. They have broken the lease by not sending recorded delivery, but I am not sure if my acknowledging receipt counteracts that.

Point 2 is still valid though as I never received the second stage of the Section 20 notice. And point 3 works for the service charges as they have never explained what they are. Surely they can’t just demand money without setting out what the money is for?

There are a few other areas where they are breaching the lease as well. They should be sending me (at no cost) a certificate each year that breaks down the service charges and what they are used for. I’ve never received one of those.

I think I have more than enough to fight these bastards, but my cowardly streak just wants to pay them and end it. :cry:

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Harry Ellis
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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Harry Ellis » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:23 am

I agree that you have more than enough to fight them with. Just see a solicitor that deals in property law to see what they think before you do anything. If it costs you a few hundred quid, so be it, it's better than just stumping up thousands with no rebuttal. That's what these kind of bastards thrive on.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Green Gecko » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:02 pm

pjbetman wrote:Come on dude, that is utter bollocks! Jeez, so the police are getting involved in civil cases now? Stop scaremongering Moggy.

A high court writ requiring eviction can be enforced by the police, there is no argument about it when and if it is served - you are thinking of debt collectors, which are essentially goons for hire. That is not the same as a high court enforcement officer, who are employed by the government afaik.

That is why I am implying the opposite, it seems unlikely they have the case to enforce that, but it is something they would want to pursue as a last resort, but is not always used as a last resort and is often done pre-emptively if the case exists. I don't think it does.

It's a valid awareness to get ahead of things like this because if someone is enough of a dickhead they will use the legal means available to them. You even get people sending out fake papers.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by OrangeReindeer » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:09 pm

Sorry to hear the CAB was not useful. I say go see a solicitor ASAP and then you can get a clear understanding of where you stand. That one-off consultancy cost will be way worth it if means avoiding thousands of pounds lost without good reason.

If you pay up this time, what's to stop them from chasing you for even more in the future with exactly the same threats? Their behaviour sound completely predatory and you need to challenge them.

Even if you are worried about the impact of the legal costs should you lose, it's still worth going and getting things talked out with a solicitor. That doesn't commit you to a lengthy court battle, far from it, and it could very easily save you an awful lot of money.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:03 pm

The wife can’t get through to the CAB on the phone either. I get that they are underfunded and busy, but they seem pretty useless.

I guess it comes down to either caving in, getting a solicitor or ringing the property management company and hoping they give me some sort of extension on their ridiculous deadline.

I think OR is right, if I just cave in then they are only going to do this to me again. Although I think I will be more experienced in future, I certainly will not acknowledge anything they send me that isn’t hand delivered or recorded delivery.

I haven’t acknowledged their letter with the deadline (which is Wednesday next week), I don’t want to lie about not receiving it though.

strawberry float I am rambling. I am stuck at work and can’t really be calling/visiting solicitors today and so have asked my wife to look at getting solicitors details. Let’s see if any of them can see me over the weekend/Monday/Tuesday.

I hate this sort of gooseberry fool. Why can’t I just be left alone without having to deal with arseholes. :x

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by jawafour » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:26 pm

Moggy, I'd support the advice of other folks here and suggest that talking to a solicitor (or other professional adviser) has become a must. These guys asking for the money appear to be trying to lure you into paying them substantial sums with short notice; it's a horrible situation but I suspect that if you do hand over large sums of money, they'll be back for more. Solicitor / professional fees definitely aren't cheap but it appears that things have progressed to a point where their advice will be essential.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Sleighamorph » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:28 pm

A lot of solicitors will give you a free initial consultation as well so there's really nothing to lose by approaching one. They can usually use that initial consultation to determine if you've got a decent chance before spending any money.

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PostRe: Buying a house (and renting)
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:32 pm

jawafour wrote:Moggy, I'd support the advice of other folks here and suggest that talking to a solicitor (or other professional adviser) has become a must. These guys asking for the money appear to be trying to lure you into paying them substantial sums with short notice; it's a horrible situation but I suspect that if you do hand over large sums of money, they'll be back for more. Solicitor / professional fees definitely aren't cheap but it appears that things have progressed to a point where their advice will be essential.


Lagamorph wrote:A lot of solicitors will give you a free initial consultation as well so there's really nothing to lose by approaching one. They can usually use that initial consultation to determine if you've got a decent chance before spending any money.


Yeah it really has got to the stage where I don’t think I can put it off any longer.

My wife has called the solicitors that her boss uses but the guy she knows is out of the office until later and she’s waiting for a call back. If he hasn’t called her back in the next hour, then we have another solicitors we are going to try and get an appointment with.

I need to stop being so lethargic about all this so maybe it is a good thing it is all coming to a head. It’s been rumbling away in the background for over 4 and a half years now!

And the strawberry floating flat is going on the market soon as well. I can’t live with being in a leasehold for much longer, especially with banana splits like this in charge of the building.


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