Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

Send them to the gallows?

Yay
7
13%
Nay
46
87%
 
Total votes: 53
User avatar
Moggy
"Special"
Joined in 2008
AKA: Moggy

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Moggy » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:20 pm

[iup=3622418]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3622408]Moggy[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3622307]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:I think it is easy to say "no" when you are an outsider, but what if a family member had been horribly murdered, or perhaps tortured over several days and then left to die? How many saying "no" would be thinking "yeah, life inside is fine"?


Justice should never be based on emotion.

Let’s say there were two identical murders committed by different people. The only difference in the cases are that one victims family express forgiveness and the other is consumed by anger.

Do you think that the murderers should be punished differently just because the family of one of the victims wants them executed?

I wasn't suggesting it should, I was just throwing something out there.
My actual opinion is that I think captial punishment should always be an option. Not because I want it to be used, but because of the deterrent it represents.


Look at countries with the death penalty. Do they have zero serious crime?

Nobody thinks "I want to murder somebody but am too worried about getting executed".

User avatar
Skarjo
Emeritus
Joined in 2008

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Skarjo » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:27 pm

[iup=3622418]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:My actual opinion is that I think captial punishment should always be an option. Not because I want it to be used, but because of the deterrent it represents.


Would that be 'none', as every study conducted into the relationship between the death penalty and murder rates suggests?

Karl wrote:Can't believe I got baited into expressing a political stance on hentai

Skarjo's Scary Stories...
User avatar
Death's Head
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Death's Head » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:34 pm

[iup=3622422]Moggy[/iup] wrote:Look at countries with the death penalty. Do they have zero serious crime?

Nobody thinks "I want to murder somebody but am too worried about getting executed".


I'm not suggesting that at all. I know it isn't a deterrent for everyone, but it will work in a handful of cases, even if it is less than 1% it has saved someone.

Yes?
User avatar
Moggy
"Special"
Joined in 2008
AKA: Moggy

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Moggy » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:36 pm

[iup=3622480]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3622422]Moggy[/iup] wrote:Look at countries with the death penalty. Do they have zero serious crime?

Nobody thinks "I want to murder somebody but am too worried about getting executed".


I'm not suggesting that at all. I know it isn't a deterrent for everyone, but it will work in a handful of cases, even if it is less than 1% it has saved someone.


It would save nobody. But would put people at risk from capital punishment.

User avatar
Death's Head
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Death's Head » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:37 pm

[iup=3622472]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:Would that be 'none', as every study conducted into the relationship between the death penalty and murder rates suggests?


To know if it worked there would have to be a survey to people who have not murdered anyone to see if the death penalty worked as a deterrent. How else could it be proven whether or not it works?

Yes?
User avatar
Death's Head
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Death's Head » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:37 pm

[iup=3622483]Moggy[/iup] wrote:It would save nobody. But would put people at risk from capital punishment.


That is just speculation, impossible to prove one way or another.

Yes?
User avatar
Moggy
"Special"
Joined in 2008
AKA: Moggy

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Moggy » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:42 pm

[iup=3622485]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3622483]Moggy[/iup] wrote:It would save nobody. But would put people at risk from capital punishment.


That is just speculation, impossible to prove one way or another.


It is not speculation, nobody at all stops themselves from murdering somebody by calmly thinking about what their punishment would be.

But we do know of plenty of people wrongly executed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

User avatar
Death's Head
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Death's Head » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:44 pm

[iup=3622490]Moggy[/iup] wrote:It is not speculation, nobody at all stops themselves from murdering somebody by calmly thinking about what their punishment would be.



Rubbish. As I said, no proof of this. Just because people get murdered even though there is a death sentence doesn't mean that it hasn't prevented some murders. It all depends on the person and whether the risk outweighs the reward, same as punishment for any other crime.

Yes?
User avatar
Moggy
"Special"
Joined in 2008
AKA: Moggy

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Moggy » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:55 pm

[iup=3622493]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3622490]Moggy[/iup] wrote:It is not speculation, nobody at all stops themselves from murdering somebody by calmly thinking about what their punishment would be.



Rubbish. As I said, no proof of this. Just because people get murdered even though there is a death sentence doesn't mean that it hasn't prevented some murders. It all depends on the person and whether the risk outweighs the reward, same as punishment for any other crime.


We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

What are your thoughts on the innocent people that are executed?

User avatar
Death's Head
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Death's Head » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:01 pm

[iup=3622502]Moggy[/iup] wrote:We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

No, I'm going to come and kill you, prior to any death sentence being re-introduced. Sleep with one eye open, you've made yourself a new forum enemy.

[iup=3622502]Moggy[/iup] wrote:What are your thoughts on the innocent people that are executed?

Obviously wrong. But if you check all my replies on this subject I have never actually said I think the actual sentence is a good thing, only the threat of it. :) *


* Still need to murder you though, soz

Yes?
User avatar
Skarjo
Emeritus
Joined in 2008

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Skarjo » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:09 pm

[iup=3622484]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3622472]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:Would that be 'none', as every study conducted into the relationship between the death penalty and murder rates suggests?


To know if it worked there would have to be a survey to people who have not murdered anyone to see if the death penalty worked as a deterrent. How else could it be proven whether or not it works?


Because countries with the death penalty have, with alarming consistency, higher murder rates than countries without.

That's not to say that correlation automatically equals causation, but it does mean that if you're claiming that one prevents the other when all data suggests the exact opposite then you're working with a flawed premise.

Karl wrote:Can't believe I got baited into expressing a political stance on hentai

Skarjo's Scary Stories...
User avatar
Moggy
"Special"
Joined in 2008
AKA: Moggy

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Moggy » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:19 pm

[iup=3622505]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3622502]Moggy[/iup] wrote:We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

No, I'm going to come and kill you, prior to any death sentence being re-introduced. Sleep with one eye open, you've made yourself a new forum enemy.

[iup=3622502]Moggy[/iup] wrote:What are your thoughts on the innocent people that are executed?

Obviously wrong. But if you check all my replies on this subject I have never actually said I think the actual sentence is a good thing, only the threat of it. :) *


* Still need to murder you though, soz


As we don't have the death penalty, I guess there is nothing to stop you murdering me. :cry:

User avatar
Death's Head
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Death's Head » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:46 pm

[iup=3622510]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:Because countries with the death penalty have, with alarming consistency, higher murder rates than countries without.

That's not to say that correlation automatically equals causation, but it does mean that if you're claiming that one prevents the other when all data suggests the exact opposite then you're working with a flawed premise.

Or flawed data. Have you considered that countries with the death penalty that have higher murder rates have so because of the environment rather than the death penalty? i.e. the county is particularly barbaric or troublesome and this is the cause of the murders and not somehow that the penalty does no good?

I expect we could look at a country like Malaysia that does have the death penalty and find countries that don't have it where they have a higher murder rate.

What would be interesting is if we looked at UK stats to show murder rate per head in the 5 years up to and including when we had capital punishment and the 5 years after to see what the change in murder rate was.

Yes?
User avatar
Death's Head
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Death's Head » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:47 pm

[iup=3622518]Moggy[/iup] wrote:As we don't have the death penalty, I guess there is nothing to stop you murdering me. :cry:


Actually I can't be bothered. However, should we bring back the death penalty this would somehow inspire me so make sure you vote "no" if given the option.

Yes?
User avatar
Skarjo
Emeritus
Joined in 2008

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Skarjo » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:35 pm

[iup=3622526]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3622510]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:Because countries with the death penalty have, with alarming consistency, higher murder rates than countries without.

That's not to say that correlation automatically equals causation, but it does mean that if you're claiming that one prevents the other when all data suggests the exact opposite then you're working with a flawed premise.

Or flawed data. Have you considered that countries with the death penalty that have higher murder rates have so because of the environment rather than the death penalty? i.e. the county is particularly barbaric or troublesome and this is the cause of the murders and not somehow that the penalty does no good?

I expect we could look at a country like Malaysia that does have the death penalty and find countries that don't have it where they have a higher murder rate.

What would be interesting is if we looked at UK stats to show murder rate per head in the 5 years up to and including when we had capital punishment and the 5 years after to see what the change in murder rate was.


If fair comparison is your concern, why not look at the easiest comparison which is the US, which decides the death penalty by state and thus has some with it and some without.

And, with absolute consistency, states with death penalties have higher murder rates per capita than states without.

Image

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterre ... rder-rates

Karl wrote:Can't believe I got baited into expressing a political stance on hentai

Skarjo's Scary Stories...
User avatar
Death's Head
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Death's Head » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:16 pm

[iup=3622556]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:If fair comparison is your concern, why not look at the easiest comparison which is the US, which decides the death penalty by state and thus has some with it and some without.



Not a fair comparison though, is it. It is states that have always had it vs states that haven't. I would rather see data on a state that did and then didn't or vice versa, hence I think the UK stats would be interesting if we could see the difference between when we had it and when we didn't for a few years near the end of the period when it was abolished and then for the same few number of years after. I think the stats you showed actually prooves it is the environment that requires the penalty rather than the penalty making no difference - otherwise the stats suggest that by having the penalty you are more likely to commit a murder.

Yes?
Corazon de Leon

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Corazon de Leon » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:32 pm

[iup=3622588]Death's Head[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3622556]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:If fair comparison is your concern, why not look at the easiest comparison which is the US, which decides the death penalty by state and thus has some with it and some without.



Not a fair comparison though, is it. It is states that have always had it vs states that haven't. I would rather see data on a state that did and then didn't or vice versa, hence I think the UK stats would be interesting if we could see the difference between when we had it and when we didn't for a few years near the end of the period when it was abolished and then for the same few number of years after. I think the stats you showed actually prooves it is the environment that requires the penalty rather than the penalty making no difference - otherwise the stats suggest that by having the penalty you are more likely to commit a murder.


Not true. I can't really be arsed to look this up just now but there was a nationwide moratorium on the death penalty in the early 1970s or late 1960s and several states have voted to abolish the penalty in the past. I know New York in particular has had periods both with and without the death penalty in effect in recent years. I believe NY currently has the death penalty in force.

User avatar
Skarjo
Emeritus
Joined in 2008

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Skarjo » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:37 pm

Right, so it's not a fair comparison to look at States with or without the death penalty because the environment is too different, but it's OK to compare murder rates from 60 years ago to today.

Karl wrote:Can't believe I got baited into expressing a political stance on hentai

Skarjo's Scary Stories...
User avatar
Death's Head
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Death's Head » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:40 pm

Skarjo wrote:Right, so it's not a fair comparison to look at States with or without the death penalty because the environment is too different, but it's OK to compare murder rates from 60 years ago to today.

I didn't say from 60 years ago to toady, I said a few years before it was abolished and a few years after it was abolished. Seems we aren't going to agree anyway.

Yes?
User avatar
Jay Adama
Emeritus
Joined in 2008
Location: Edinburgh/Tokyo

PostRe: Capital Punishment: Yay or nay?
by Jay Adama » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:44 pm

You're never going to get the data you want short of a parallel universe where everything is the same except one has capital punishment and one doesn't.

The figures we have seem to suggest there is no deterring effect (to say the least) so I don't understand where the pro-capital punishment as a deterrent argument is coming from? There's literally nothing to suggest it works.


Return to “Stuff”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Godzilla, Grumpy David, KK, Memento Mori, Ploiper, Rubix, shy guy 64, wensleydale and 415 guests