Cooperative puzzle games

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Mockmaster
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PostCooperative puzzle games
by Mockmaster » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:25 pm

Would you be interested in playing a game where you work with other people to solve physics based and logic based puzzles? Perhaps over PSN or XBLA. You'd communicate over the headset and coordinate your moves together to achieve an objective.

Non-violent, purely about team-based puzzle solving, all wrapped up with slick 2D 'retro' style graphics with some nice visual effects.

And are there any examples of team based puzzle games? I'm struggling to think of any. I know there must be some. Any on PSN/XBLA?

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Mockmaster
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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Mockmaster » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:33 pm

My Human Gets Me Blues wrote:N+ has solo and co-op modes. A lot of the co-op levels are a bit samey, but some require co-operation in fairly inspired -- and infuriating if HoC's outbursts are anything to go by -- way.


Ah yes, N+

I'll check that out. Especially the co-op mode. No more than 2 players though, right? 4 players would be even more hectic, but obviously increases the possibilities......

Do both players have the same set of skills at their disposal?

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Iron Nan
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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Iron Nan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:35 pm

Mockmaster, that sounds like a great idea. I've been surprised by how much I enjoy co-op and probably mostly because it's about not competing with your mates.

What system is N+ on then?

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samoza
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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by samoza » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:36 pm

I bought Boogie Bunnies to play with my GF. Its a bit like Tetris were both of you fire blocks at the same time.

Also there is that co-op game where you take control of a ship each and must destroy the other coulor bad guys than your own - meant to be the most co-op game ever. Came out on LIVE a few weeks back.

I am a writer at Co-optimus - a site dedicated to co-op gaming
http://www.co-optimus.com/
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Mockmaster
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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Mockmaster » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:43 pm

IRON NAN wrote:Mockmaster, that sounds like a great idea. I've been surprised by how much I enjoy co-op and probably mostly because it's about not competing with your mates.

What system is N+ on then?



XBLA. Don't know if it's on PSN.

And samoza, I think the game you are referring to is Ikaruga. Not quite what I'm looking for as it's a frenetic shooter rather than a sedate and calculated puzzle game, but still worthy of research to see how the co-op works. So cheers.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by abcd » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:44 pm

Am I the only one who thought for a second that the Co-Op were selling games on pizzas?

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Alpha eX
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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Alpha eX » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:39 pm

Chu Chu Rocket was co-op, that game was awesome.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Raze » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:02 pm

My Human Gets Me Blues wrote:Unless you meant Schizoid, but I've not played that. Your description indicates Ikaruga, though.


He's talking about that (but you're right, the description perfectly fits Ikaruga... and also Schizoid. :lol:). It's good, you should check it out.

Mockmaster's idea sounds awesome.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Neph » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:39 pm

Zack and wiki allowed for co op to help point you in the right direction if thats what you mean, maybe thats a slimmed down version of what you want?

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Hero of Canton » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:41 pm

It's almost certainly not what you're looking for, but Trauma Center: New Blood is a really enjoyable co-operative puzzler.

DML wrote:F'NARR!
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The Alchemist Penguin
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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by The Alchemist Penguin » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:57 pm

Kuri Kuri Mix could be what you're looking for, Mocky. It was a two player (you could play it in single player, using an analog stick to control each character, but it really wasn't possible) gem that came out on PS2, but they made a sequel on the DS.

Unfortunately, the only You Tube video of it I can find is of bad quality, and is of the start of the game so things are pretty simple. Later on the levels got incredibly ingenious, and it was unbelievable fun with a mate. At times the screen splits in two and you're running alongside each other solving things, or at completely different parts of the level, or sometimes you're both on the same area and able to tag team, it's very varied. It most certainly is not "relaxed" though, as the timing of some of it means you can be screaming at a mate "JUMP! JUMP NOW! HIT IT! SWING THAT! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!", but it was better for it.



Hopefully it'll give you an idea of what it was like.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Mockmaster » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:26 pm

Stu wrote:Am I the only one who thought for a second that the Co-Op were selling games on pizzas?


Sorry to let you down on that front. Having said that you may be onto something. I'll speak to the people in marketing.

My Human Gets Me Blues wrote:All players have the same base ninja abilities and nothing more - since N+ is about precision and timing, not special abilities.


Aha. Hmm, yes, I have been toying with this. Give the players all the same abilities to keep it extremely simple and straightforward? Or give them unique abilities. I've been veering towards the latter. Each team member would have unique skills that you would need to exploit differently in different situations, sometimes combining these skills. Think Team Fortress, but a puzzle game and no combat, and also 2D. So, only like Team Fortress in that it has very well defined character classes that can do different things. Hopefully players would become attached to certain classes.

Alpha eX wrote:Chu Chu Rocket was co-op, that game was awesome.


I'll investigate this. I regretfully admit to only having played Chu Chu once, for about 5 minutes.

Raze wrote:
My Human Gets Me Blues wrote:Unless you meant Schizoid, but I've not played that. Your description indicates Ikaruga, though.


He's talking about that (but you're right, the description perfectly fits Ikaruga... and also Schizoid. :lol:). It's good, you should check it out.


Cheers. I just checked some videos of Schizoid. There are a couple of things that it does that may have some relevance, particularly one player protecting the other because they are immune to a certain danger while the other isn't.

Neph wrote:Zack and wiki allowed for co op to help point you in the right direction if thats what you mean, maybe thats a slimmed down version of what you want?


Well, I'm interested in how any co-op puzzley game might work. Just to get some ideas about the best way of integrating it into the experience in a way that is fun and not frustrating. Even something as simple and basic as Mario Galaxy's co-op mode has some interesting aspects to it.

Hero of Canton wrote:It's almost certainly not what you're looking for, but Trauma Center: New Blood is a really enjoyable co-operative puzzler.


I'll check it out. Again, it would be interesting to see how they implement the co-op. I'm assuming there are alot of time based challenges, being that you have to complete an operation against the clock with pressure ramping up. I'd be particularly interested in set pieces that occur, i.e. things you don't expect that suddenly change what you have to do while you were in the middle of doing something else.

What I've been thinking about is a primarily online co-op experience but then again, there is no real reason why it couldn't also work as an offline co-op, I just never looked at it in that way when envisaging it. But maybe samoza might like to play it offline with his GF, and who am I to deny him that choice?

The Alchemist Penguin wrote:Kuri Kuri Mix could be what you're looking for, Mocky. It was a two player (you could play it in single player, using an analog stick to control each character, but it really wasn't possible) gem that came out on PS2, but they made a sequel on the DS.


Thanks Alcho. I've actually played Kuri Kuri Mix as part of my research. It does a few interesting things. I had no idea there was a DS sequel though. I'll track it down.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Psychic » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:01 pm

Mockmaster wrote:
My Human Gets Me Blues wrote:All players have the same base ninja abilities and nothing more - since N+ is about precision and timing, not special abilities.


Aha. Hmm, yes, I have been toying with this. Give the players all the same abilities to keep it extremely simple and straightforward? Or give them unique abilities. I've been veering towards the latter. Each team member would have unique skills that you would need to exploit differently in different situations, sometimes combining these skills. Think Team Fortress, but a puzzle game and no combat, and also 2D. So, only like Team Fortress in that it has very well defined character classes that can do different things. Hopefully players would become attached to certain classes


Like a modern Lost Vikings, butg with multiplayer?

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by The Alchemist Penguin » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:08 pm

THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: FOUR SWORDS ADVENTURES!

I'm such an eejit, that is the perfect example of the kind of game you're talking about!

The Link's all start off with the same abilities, but they can pick up items in the level to give them different abilities, and by mix-and-matching the different abilites, you progress through the levels solving the puzzles. Four Swords is, mostly, a puzzle game, although it does have combat too. Link A might have to pick up Link B and throw him across a gap to get some Bombs, so he can blow up an entrance to allow Link A to progress, etc...

It's a bit of a mix of the two, since you start off the same but then can get new abilities to desperate your characters as you progress. It also means, although you might not be going for this angle, that if two Link's both want "Bombs", then they'd start fighting over who gets to them first.

If you haven't played it, then I say it's required research. It has the perfect mix of co-op and counter-op gameplay, meaning you're always playing together, but at the same time always trying to get one up on each other. The fact you can "hide" on the GBA screen too, is a vital element of how it works, which would kinda of be how online would work too, since you can't see each other's screen.

You might not be looking for the counter-op bit, but the puzzle based co-op gameplay would show you a lot.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Alpha eX » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:06 pm

Four Swords is one of the best multiplayer games i've ever played, greed for the rupees over takes everyone and it puts an makes working together very interesting, you have to watch your bag.

Seriously, easily one of the best 4 player games, try get 3 mates together and play it, great times.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by The Alchemist Penguin » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:19 pm

Mockmaster wrote:I'll check it out. Again, it would be interesting to see how they implement the co-op. I'm assuming there are alot of time based challenges, being that you have to complete an operation against the clock with pressure ramping up. I'd be particularly interested in set pieces that occur, i.e. things you don't expect that suddenly change what you have to do while you were in the middle of doing something else.


I haven't played New Blood yet, since they're refusing to release it over here.

But there was a lot of set piece style scenarios in the original game. One of the earliest ones in the original was that lots of little shards of glass had got stuck into a guy's heart during a car accident. It was a fairly simply training mission, teaching you to pluck out things, but once you got all the small shards, a huge screen filling shard of glass ripped out of his heart, causing his vitals to crash to near 0, meaning you had only a few seconds to get everything back to normal, making sure you had perfectly learned everything you had been taught.

You can pick up the original pretty cheaply on the Wii these days, I'd say you should check it out if you want to check out how it handles sudden scenario changes. £14.99 from Gameplay, or I could send you my copy, if you ask nice enough.

There is a fantastic one in one of the Wii exclusive missions that I don't want to spoil, but if you really want to know without playing it:

You're operating on another car crash patient, after they crash in a tunnel. After you fix up the first few wounds, the lights in the tunnel go out because of the car crash. So then you have to use a small pen light, and direct it's small circle of light to where you want it. But then that runs out of power, and you're stranded in the dark. You then have to keep using the flash off a camera to, for a split second, light up the area and show you stuff, and then you have to operate in the dark, remembering exactly what you saw.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Mockmaster » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:38 pm

PsychicSykes wrote:
Mockmaster wrote:
My Human Gets Me Blues wrote:All players have the same base ninja abilities and nothing more - since N+ is about precision and timing, not special abilities.


Aha. Hmm, yes, I have been toying with this. Give the players all the same abilities to keep it extremely simple and straightforward? Or give them unique abilities. I've been veering towards the latter. Each team member would have unique skills that you would need to exploit differently in different situations, sometimes combining these skills. Think Team Fortress, but a puzzle game and no combat, and also 2D. So, only like Team Fortress in that it has very well defined character classes that can do different things. Hopefully players would become attached to certain classes


Like a modern Lost Vikings, but with multiplayer?



Nice. You've kind of hit the nail on the head with Lost Vikings, at least, to a degree.

The goal is to guide all Vikings safely through each level. The game's originality is due to the fact that the player controls three different characters (although only one at any given time), and must make use of their individual abilities and their combinations to solve puzzles and progress.


The only difference being that each puzzle area would be confined to one single room rather than a large scrolling area. And so within that room you'd need to work out the steps to progress from the entrance to the exit. And there would be hundreds of these rooms. So as to offer a huge variety of different types of puzzles, some logic centred, others physics based. And it would probably be trial and error. If you made a mistake you could roll back or reset.

This game would offer single and multiplayer.


The Alchemist Penguin wrote:THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: FOUR SWORDS ADVENTURES!

I'm such an eejit, that is the perfect example of the kind of game you're talking about!


I have always regretted not playing it. It sounds like it has scenarios that could inspire and inform me though. Particularly the combining abilities. For example, coincidentally, one of the team members would be a 'strong' dude who would have the ability to do things like throw one of the other guys across a gap, so similar to your Zelda example, or put them on his shoulders so they could reach higher areas. Even the counter op stuff will be informative. I'm not going for a competitive element although having said that, I'm open to it, even if it's a small facet of the game related to Achievements/Trophies.

Sadly Love Film don't have it. I might try and see if anyone would be willing to lend me it on here.

As regards to the Trauma Centre games, thanks for the offer, but that I can indeed rent that from Love Film. I'll add it to my list on high priority. I'm eager to see how these change in scenario segments work. The example you spoilered is actually quite intriguing, I've thought about using light/dark in some of the puzzles. It is appropriate for the game I have in mind. As well as possibly sound.


Thanks guys, this is all really helpful, getting the cogs in my brain turning.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by The Alchemist Penguin » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:06 pm

The counter-op bit of the game is very slight, on first glance, which is what makes it so special. The game basically says "You have to work together to finish the level" and then slyly adds "but the person who ends the level with the most force gems (Four Swords version of rupees) wins a trophy, and bragging rights."

Then when you complete a puzzle (not all puzzles, just some, so you never know when it'll happen) a huge amount of force gems fall from the sky, so it turns into a squabble to grab the most.

Taking your example, it could be that after each puzzle room there is a room full of coins, or something similar, so the first person through the door would be the person most likely to gain the coins. It seems like a very small thing, but suddenly you've got players wanting to be first through the door, which means they might start fighting over who gets to push the final switch, etc...

It's such a small thing, on paper, but it plants a seed of deception in the mind of the players and that is really what sets everything off. For instance, in Four Swords, if you run out of hearts you have to spend some force gems to get revived and a good portion of your force gems fall onto the ground for other players to collect. Suddenly, you have players "accidentally" misreading gaps and throwing players down holes, or catching another player with an arrow while they were firing at an enemy. Everything changes, and Nintendo haven't really done anything at all. :P

I'm probably telling you stuff you've already thought of, but it never hurts to explain it all. :D

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by TheTurnipKing » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:16 pm

The Alchemist Penguin wrote:Then when you complete a puzzle (not all puzzles, just some, so you never know when it'll happen) a huge amount of force gems fall from the sky, so it turns into a squabble to grab the most.

On one memorable occasion while playing FSA, MrBrown and I, fed up with the squabbling and bickering of the other two players, simply picked them both up and forcibly carried them into the next screen. :lol:

Genius design, the way all the classic Zelda interactive elements are applied to ALL the objects in the world.

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PostRe: Cooperative puzzle games
by Lotus » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:02 pm

Net Yaroze had some interesting co-op games. Psychon was a top-down shooter, quite fast and frantic if I remember, but a great game to play with a mate.

There was also a Pac-Man style puzzle game that was essentially you both running around collecting shapes and such while being chased by zombies. All with nice classical music going in the background. Good game, that.

A co-op RPG was in there as well, that was an interesting one. Mainly the co-op was used for puzzle solving, basic things like switches that need two people, pushing blocks and such.


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