Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!

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Errkal
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PostRe: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Errkal » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:47 am

I'd like an easy mode as right now I can't play the game.
I can nearly to the firdt run but strawberry float it and I just don't have the patience to do the same thing over and over and it just plain isn't fun.
I play to enjoy myself not learn something inside out so I jump and fire in the right places from memory that's just not fun and because of how hard they have made this the game just isn't fun.

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Frank
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PostRe: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Frank » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:29 am

I’ve made a habit of not buying any game that tries to use it’s difficulty as a selling point. Making games less accessible is exactly what we shouldn’t be encouraging.

Would be interesting to see how many of the 2.5 million people ( :dread: ) who bought Cuphead actually saw the ending.

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PostRe: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Trelliz » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:18 am

Frank wrote:I’ve made a habit of not buying any game that tries to use it’s difficulty as a selling point. Making games less accessible is exactly what we shouldn’t be encouraging.

Would be interesting to see how many of the 2.5 million people ( :dread: ) who bought Cuphead actually saw the ending.


I imagine achievement/trophy stats/rarity would give a pretty clear indication.

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PostRe: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Moggy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:12 am

Trelliz wrote:I see nothing wrong with adding an easy mode regardless of how much it "cheapens" or shortens the experience - let people experience the game on their own terms and work up to the "real" experience if they want, or not if they don't rather than slamming the door in their face. Turn off achievements or whatever to preserve the "sanctity" of the core experience if needed too.


I agree, there is nothing wrong with having an easy mode for those that don’t want or aren’t able to play at full difficulty. Just put in an achievement for completing at a harder difficulty to satisfy the people that like to show how hardcore they are.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Death's Head » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:09 am

Moggy wrote:
Trelliz wrote:I see nothing wrong with adding an easy mode regardless of how much it "cheapens" or shortens the experience - let people experience the game on their own terms and work up to the "real" experience if they want, or not if they don't rather than slamming the door in their face. Turn off achievements or whatever to preserve the "sanctity" of the core experience if needed too.


I agree, there is nothing wrong with having an easy mode for those that don’t want or aren’t able to play at full difficulty. Just put in an achievement for completing at a harder difficulty to satisfy the people that like to show how hardcore they are.
I think with this particular game an easy mode would be a problem as people would then complain that it only has 2 hours of game play.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Death's Head » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:11 am

Trelliz wrote:
Frank wrote:I’ve made a habit of not buying any game that tries to use it’s difficulty as a selling point. Making games less accessible is exactly what we shouldn’t be encouraging.

Would be interesting to see how many of the 2.5 million people ( :dread: ) who bought Cuphead actually saw the ending.


I imagine achievement/trophy stats/rarity would give a pretty clear indication.
Do Steam achievements show rarity?

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Manwell Pablo
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PostRe: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Manwell Pablo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:19 am

Completing the game on normal has a 14% unlock rate. That's tracked gamer's on TrueAchievements though which is a much higher standard of unlock rate than the overall which I'd imagine would be less than 5% possibly even lower

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Moggy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:21 am

Death's Head wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Trelliz wrote:I see nothing wrong with adding an easy mode regardless of how much it "cheapens" or shortens the experience - let people experience the game on their own terms and work up to the "real" experience if they want, or not if they don't rather than slamming the door in their face. Turn off achievements or whatever to preserve the "sanctity" of the core experience if needed too.


I agree, there is nothing wrong with having an easy mode for those that don’t want or aren’t able to play at full difficulty. Just put in an achievement for completing at a harder difficulty to satisfy the people that like to show how hardcore they are.
I think with this particular game an easy mode would be a problem as people would then complain that it only has 2 hours of game play.


Which is their problem for playing it on easy.

With a decent balance between modes of “Very Easy”, “Easy”, “Normal”, “Hard” and “Very Hard” there should always be a way for everyone to play a game the way they want to.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Trelliz » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:44 am

Death's Head wrote:Do Steam achievements show rarity?


Yeah, if you view your cheevs for a game in the top left is something like "view global statistics" which shows the percentage of people who have unlocked each one. You can put a thing on your profile showing the rarest ones.

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PostRe: RE: Re: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Death's Head » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:59 am

Moggy wrote:
Death's Head wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Trelliz wrote:I see nothing wrong with adding an easy mode regardless of how much it "cheapens" or shortens the experience - let people experience the game on their own terms and work up to the "real" experience if they want, or not if they don't rather than slamming the door in their face. Turn off achievements or whatever to preserve the "sanctity" of the core experience if needed too.


I agree, there is nothing wrong with having an easy mode for those that don’t want or aren’t able to play at full difficulty. Just put in an achievement for completing at a harder difficulty to satisfy the people that like to show how hardcore they are.
I think with this particular game an easy mode would be a problem as people would then complain that it only has 2 hours of game play.


Which is their problem for playing it on easy.

With a decent balance between modes of “Very Easy”, “Easy”, “Normal”, “Hard” and “Very Hard” there should always be a way for everyone to play a game the way they want to.
I see that more of the developers fault for including too little content.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by rinks » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:37 pm

Death's Head wrote:I agree that there should be an easy mode on all games to let each person enjoy them how they want. We have after all paid for the games so we should get to play through the whole thing, being forced to give up or grind to finish a game is a design error. I'm sure no one would enjoy watching a film and getting two thirds through to find it then switches to a language you don't understand and you are forced to go away and learn that language before you can finish the film.


I've been thinking about this throughout the day.

I enjoyed Cuphead as it is. I really don't like its visual style: the challenge is what attracted me to it. If it had been easy, I'd have detested it. But I agreed with the first point - there's no harm in adding an easy mode for those who want it.

But then I started to change my mind. Why should all games be accessible to everybody? Other entertainment forms don't have that imposition. I personally find most fighting games almost completely impenetrable. Should they all be designed so that I can make sense of them? No. They're just not for me, so I tend not to buy them.

And at risk of just sounding contrary, as an experiment I do kind of like the idea of a film that suddenly becomes unintelligible, requiring you to go away and learn things. But it's not a fair comparison to what's going on in Cuphead. Say there's a film that deals with complex theories, or that is so deviously plotted that some people aren't going to be able to follow it. Should that film come with optional voice-overs to explain what's going on to viewers of various levels of intellect?

I also disagree with the suggestion that the game has been artificially extended by making it more difficult. Learning how to beat the bosses, and getting good enough to do it, IS the game. If you want an easy platformer that can be trotted through virtually without failing, there's no shortage. This is not one of them.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Trelliz » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:54 pm

rinks wrote:But then I started to change my mind. Why should all games be accessible to everybody? Other entertainment forms don't have that imposition...

And at risk of just sounding contrary, as an experiment I do kind of like the idea of a film that suddenly becomes unintelligible, requiring you to go away and learn things. But it's not a fair comparison to what's going on in Cuphead. Say there's a film that deals with complex theories, or that is so deviously plotted that some people aren't going to be able to follow it. Should that film come with optional voice-overs to explain what's going on to viewers of various levels of intellect?


Primer is exactly like that; complex, contradictory and requires several viewings, a flowchart and lengthy paragraphs of exposition to begin to get, however the DVD doesn't stop half way through and ask me to explain the theoretical model of time travel it uses - I can watch the whole film and go "huh, that was weird, I want to go read up on what was REALLY going on", making that depth accessible on my own terms because I chose to, not because I walked into a cognitive wall and was prevented from fully experiencing something I paid for.

I play through stuff like Devil May Cry once on easy and have a good time because the game lets me. Sure I don't get into the depths of the combat or git gud at the Dante Must Die difficulty or whatever, but that's fine, I can engage with it on my own terms and have a good time while the purists can SSS-rank through on the hardest difficulty to their heart's content. I'm not going to buy Cuphead or other games like it because I know barely see any of the content before bouncing off, making it a waste of money, which is why making games accessible is good, it makes more money and broadens the audience.

An old Jim Sterling video talks about different kinds of difficulty with regard to Kirby's Epic Yarn, that you can muddle through the whole game but getting perfect scores etc. was extremely hard:



That's what I'd like to see in cuphead - let us plebs flail around in the padded ball-pit but still have room for the purists to do their thing.

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PostRe: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Death's Head » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:13 pm

3 bosses done on island 3, haven't looked at the run and gun levels yet. :dread:

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Death's Head » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:16 pm

rinks wrote: Why should all games be accessible to everybody?


Simply because they've paid for them. If you buy a game and find it too hard I think it is unreasonable for the person not to be able to complete it on their own terms. If the game was free, that would be a different matter.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Moggy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:56 pm

rinks wrote: Why should all games be accessible to everybody?


That sort of question is pointless as you can just as easily ask “why shouldn’t all games be accessible to everybody?”.

I wouldn’t agree with making all games piss easy so anybody could play them. But that’s not what was said, the idea is games should give people a choice of how to play. With various difficulty modes, there is no reason gamers who want a challenge should miss out and equally no reason why gamers who just want to see the end should miss out.

Call the modes “easy” and “recommended” so that people can pick whether to play the way the developers intended or whether to have an easy ride while getting to see all of the game that they paid for.

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Manwell Pablo
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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Manwell Pablo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:01 am

Moggy wrote:
rinks wrote: Why should all games be accessible to everybody?


That sort of question is pointless as you can just as easily ask “why shouldn’t all games be accessible to everybody?”.

I wouldn’t agree with making all games piss easy so anybody could play them. But that’s not what was said, the idea is games should give people a choice of how to play. With various difficulty modes, there is no reason gamers who want a challenge should miss out and equally no reason why gamers who just want to see the end should miss out.

Call the modes “easy” and “recommended” so that people can pick whether to play the way the developers intended or whether to have an easy ride while getting to see all of the game that they paid for.


This is what it comes down to for me. Developers prerogative, I'm pretty sure the thought of someone smashing through Dark Souls in 4 hours on Super Easy mode would physically make Miyazaki sick. If they want to be punishingly difficult it's entirely up to them, it is the consumers decision whether they wish to part with their money in the knowledge the game is difficult (and if they are unaware they should research their purchases better)

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Moggy » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:06 am

Manwell Pablo wrote:
Moggy wrote:
rinks wrote: Why should all games be accessible to everybody?


That sort of question is pointless as you can just as easily ask “why shouldn’t all games be accessible to everybody?”.

I wouldn’t agree with making all games piss easy so anybody could play them. But that’s not what was said, the idea is games should give people a choice of how to play. With various difficulty modes, there is no reason gamers who want a challenge should miss out and equally no reason why gamers who just want to see the end should miss out.

Call the modes “easy” and “recommended” so that people can pick whether to play the way the developers intended or whether to have an easy ride while getting to see all of the game that they paid for.


This is what it comes down to for me. Developers prerogative, I'm pretty sure the thought of someone smashing through Dark Souls in 4 hours on Super Easy mode would physically make Miyazaki sick. If they want to be punishingly difficult it's entirely up to them, it is the consumers decision whether they wish to part with their money in the knowledge the game is difficult (and if they are unaware they should research their purchases better)


Of course it is up to them, but they will lose out financially if they don’t listen to their customers.

Dark Souls sells itself on being difficult, I can see why there isn’t a super easy mode there and it will not harm their sales.

Cuphead sells itself on the 1930s cartoon graphics, there is no reason why there couldn’t be an easy mode and I would imagine a lot of people will be put off of buying Cuphead 2 because of it.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Manwell Pablo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:11 am

Moggy wrote:
Manwell Pablo wrote:
Moggy wrote:
rinks wrote: Why should all games be accessible to everybody?


That sort of question is pointless as you can just as easily ask “why shouldn’t all games be accessible to everybody?”.

I wouldn’t agree with making all games piss easy so anybody could play them. But that’s not what was said, the idea is games should give people a choice of how to play. With various difficulty modes, there is no reason gamers who want a challenge should miss out and equally no reason why gamers who just want to see the end should miss out.

Call the modes “easy” and “recommended” so that people can pick whether to play the way the developers intended or whether to have an easy ride while getting to see all of the game that they paid for.


This is what it comes down to for me. Developers prerogative, I'm pretty sure the thought of someone smashing through Dark Souls in 4 hours on Super Easy mode would physically make Miyazaki sick. If they want to be punishingly difficult it's entirely up to them, it is the consumers decision whether they wish to part with their money in the knowledge the game is difficult (and if they are unaware they should research their purchases better)


Of course it is up to them, but they will lose out financially if they don’t listen to their customers.

Dark Souls sells itself on being difficult, I can see why there isn’t a super easy mode there and it will not harm their sales.

Cuphead sells itself on the 1930s cartoon graphics, there is no reason why there couldn’t be an easy mode and I would imagine a lot of people will be put off of buying Cuphead 2 because of it.



Quite possibly but again, their prerogative if it's what they want to do. I admit it is a bit of an odd move to make a game in the style they have and make hair pullingly difficult with no option to change.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Moggy » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:23 am

Manwell Pablo wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Manwell Pablo wrote:
Moggy wrote:
rinks wrote: Why should all games be accessible to everybody?


That sort of question is pointless as you can just as easily ask “why shouldn’t all games be accessible to everybody?”.

I wouldn’t agree with making all games piss easy so anybody could play them. But that’s not what was said, the idea is games should give people a choice of how to play. With various difficulty modes, there is no reason gamers who want a challenge should miss out and equally no reason why gamers who just want to see the end should miss out.

Call the modes “easy” and “recommended” so that people can pick whether to play the way the developers intended or whether to have an easy ride while getting to see all of the game that they paid for.


This is what it comes down to for me. Developers prerogative, I'm pretty sure the thought of someone smashing through Dark Souls in 4 hours on Super Easy mode would physically make Miyazaki sick. If they want to be punishingly difficult it's entirely up to them, it is the consumers decision whether they wish to part with their money in the knowledge the game is difficult (and if they are unaware they should research their purchases better)


Of course it is up to them, but they will lose out financially if they don’t listen to their customers.

Dark Souls sells itself on being difficult, I can see why there isn’t a super easy mode there and it will not harm their sales.

Cuphead sells itself on the 1930s cartoon graphics, there is no reason why there couldn’t be an easy mode and I would imagine a lot of people will be put off of buying Cuphead 2 because of it.



Quite possibly but again, their prerogative if it's what they want to do. I admit it is a bit of an odd move to make a game in the style they have and make hair pullingly difficult with no option to change.


Nobody is saying they should be forced to do anything that they don’t want to do.

Saying “that’s their prerogative” is true, but it goes for pretty much everything to do with game design and would make this whole forum a little boring if we didn’t discuss around it.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Cuphead | 1930's Cartoon Spectacular!
by Manwell Pablo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:33 am

Moggy wrote:
Manwell Pablo wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Manwell Pablo wrote:
Moggy wrote:
rinks wrote: Why should all games be accessible to everybody?


That sort of question is pointless as you can just as easily ask “why shouldn’t all games be accessible to everybody?”.

I wouldn’t agree with making all games piss easy so anybody could play them. But that’s not what was said, the idea is games should give people a choice of how to play. With various difficulty modes, there is no reason gamers who want a challenge should miss out and equally no reason why gamers who just want to see the end should miss out.

Call the modes “easy” and “recommended” so that people can pick whether to play the way the developers intended or whether to have an easy ride while getting to see all of the game that they paid for.


This is what it comes down to for me. Developers prerogative, I'm pretty sure the thought of someone smashing through Dark Souls in 4 hours on Super Easy mode would physically make Miyazaki sick. If they want to be punishingly difficult it's entirely up to them, it is the consumers decision whether they wish to part with their money in the knowledge the game is difficult (and if they are unaware they should research their purchases better)


Of course it is up to them, but they will lose out financially if they don’t listen to their customers.

Dark Souls sells itself on being difficult, I can see why there isn’t a super easy mode there and it will not harm their sales.

Cuphead sells itself on the 1930s cartoon graphics, there is no reason why there couldn’t be an easy mode and I would imagine a lot of people will be put off of buying Cuphead 2 because of it.



Quite possibly but again, their prerogative if it's what they want to do. I admit it is a bit of an odd move to make a game in the style they have and make hair pullingly difficult with no option to change.


Nobody is saying they should be forced to do anything that they don’t want to do.

Saying “that’s their prerogative” is true, but it goes for pretty much everything to do with game design and would make this whole forum a little boring if we didn’t discuss around it.


Totally, it is what we are doing now. The undertone I was getting from some of the discussions was actually that all games should have a difficulty mode or all games should be accessible due to the fact the consumer has paid the money which in my own tiny and insignificant opinion should not be the case. I can't really offer anything more insightful or in depth on the topic due to the fact I haven't actually played the game in question :lol: (although I do plan to at some point)

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