Defending Your Home

So there was a news story here that's gotten a bit of attention lately:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon ... -1.4526313

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon ... -1.4520214

Essentially a group of 5 people in their 20's went to a farm, they claimed they were looking for mechanical help for their car. When they arrived, two of them got out of their car, one went and started rummaging through a pick up truck parked in the farmers drive way, and another went and got on and started an ATV also on the driveway, although the guy claimed he wasn't intending on stealing it.

When the farmer saw this he went and got his gun and fired two round (he claims in the air, some in the group said they heard the bullets go past them). Then he claims he saw a lawnmower his wife had been riding on earlier and was worried they had run her over so he ran to the groups car and tried to shut off the ignition. While doing so he says the gun accidentally went off and shot and killed a man still in the car. When the farmer and his son went to check on the guy that got shot, they noticed he had a rifle with him.

That's pretty much the short version based on the second link provided.

This farmer was charged with 2nd degree murder, and was recently acquitted, and some people are pretty upset by this verdict as they think he's a murderer.

So what's your opinion if it was your home?

For me it's a pretty different situation as I live in a city where police response times would certainly be better, this guy is out in pretty much the middle of nowhere, but if I had any inclination that a home invader had hurt my family I don't think I'd hesitate to shoot them, which I guess would be murder but then in that situation should it be considered as such? I know it's not technically self defense but if you're defending someone else or think you are shouldn't that still apply?

As I live in the UK and we're not supposed to have guns, if was a farmer I'd have a series of elaborate traps disguised as farming machinery. Lead the people behind the 'tractor' parked on the slope, set the brake release off remotely and run them over.

Aren't you still allowed shotguns?

It is never right to kill another person regardless of if they're invading your home. Let the people feel the full extent of the law, it's not your job to be a vigilante and you're more likely to get yourself killed.

Also the fact they have guns iis the reason criminals have to carry guns as they also take the gun for their own protection.

Qikz wrote:It is never right to kill another person regardless of if they're invading your home. Let the people feel the full extent of the law, it's not your job to be a vigilante and you're more likely to get yourself killed.

Also the fact they have guns iis the reason criminals have to carry guns as they also take the gun for their own protection.

I think I would have shared this view before having a family, but now I really can't say I fault the guy.

Would you feel the same way if you knew help was probably over an hour away? There would be virtually no chance of the home invaders being caught in that case. Also I don't think you can really fault a farmer for having guns given the amount of wild animals out there that could pose a danger to you.

Rightey wrote:Aren't you still allowed shotguns?

Yes, but the aim would be to make it look like an accident by misadventure rather than outright murder. If it's dark you could sit and argue you thought they had a gun, but during the day that excuse won't wash so you'd ideally want someone falling in a hop or something, at least to trap them.

Real talk though, you don't want anyone to die, but if sometime is in my house they'd better know they're going head first down those stairs if they're anywhere near them.

Prosecution got greedy. They should have charged him with manslaughter.

Rightey wrote:So what's your opinion if it was your home?

For me it's a pretty different situation as I live in a city where police response times would certainly be better, this guy is out in pretty much the middle of nowhere, but if I had any inclination that a home invader had hurt my family I don't think I'd hesitate to shoot them, which I guess would be murder but then in that situation should it be considered as such? I know it's not technically self defense but if you're defending someone else or think you are shouldn't that still apply?

That didn't happen in this situation, did it? I've only quickly read it so I may be wrong, but didn't the man fire warning shots because he assumed things had happened to his family/property? The victims/possible thieves did one stupid thing after another, but none of it warranted being shot at. I feel for the guy because I think he panicked and gooseberry fool quickly went south, but that doesn't excuse what he did to the guy in the car, accidental or not.
But yes, if someone broke into my home and started messing with me and put a bra on me then I'd totally do my utmost to defend myself and my family.

edit: holy gooseberry fool at the real life lag on that warning pistol thing

Saint of Killers wrote:Prosecution got greedy. They should have charged him with manslaughter.

Rightey wrote:So what's your opinion if it was your home?

For me it's a pretty different situation as I live in a city where police response times would certainly be better, this guy is out in pretty much the middle of nowhere, but if I had any inclination that a home invader had hurt my family I don't think I'd hesitate to shoot them, which I guess would be murder but then in that situation should it be considered as such? I know it's not technically self defense but if you're defending someone else or think you are shouldn't that still apply?

That didn't happen in this situation, did it? I've only quickly read it so I may be wrong, but didn't the man fire warning shots because he assumed things had happened to his family/property? The victims/possible thieves did one stupid thing after another, but none of it warranted being shot at. I feel for the guy because I think he panicked and gooseberry fool quickly went south, but that doesn't excuse what he did to the guy in the car, accidental or not.
But yes, if someone broke into my home and started messing with me and put a bra on me then I'd totally do my utmost to defend myself and my family.

edit: holy gooseberry fool at the real life lag on that warning pistol thing

His wife went to check on the occupants of the car after the two warning shots and one of the guys punched her in the face. I left that out of my summary as, from the description in the story it seems like farmer didn't see this. He saw the lawnmower near the car and thought his wife was run over, that was after he fired the two warning shots which were in response to the guy getting on and starting the ATV.

I agree that it's tough to say what happened in this situation, and hind sight is definitely 20/20. We can think things through rationally but in a situation where you don't know if one of these invaders has done something to your family you might not be so rational.

I would have killed them all, chopped up their bodies and fed them to the farm animals.

Dual wrote:I would have killed them all, chopped up their bodies and fed them to the farm animals.

Dual wrote:I would have killed them all, chopped up their bodies and fed them to the farm animals.

That's your solution to everything.

Seriously though it's a difficult one, are you supposed to wait for the group of young men who have come on to your isolated property and start going through your things to attack and potentially kill a loved one before decided they are a threat? I'm not sure what the answer is but it's another example of why guns are bad as things can go south really quickly.

Rightey, in this story, what happened to the people trying to ransack the farmer's vehicles (the ones that weren't shot)?

We had a case like this in the UK many years ago, with a farmer by the name of Tony Martin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

Whilst I obviously don't agree with murder, I do fall down on the side of one's rights going out the window once you trespass on private property (especially when you are intent on stealing from and potentially causing injury to others). These cases could well be argued as self-defence. The bottom line is that neither of these incidents would have occurred if these people had stayed away.

I mean is anyone seriously not going to try and defend their family and belongings to the absolute fullest extent? It's absurd. What is a homeowner supposed to do? Let an intruder run wild, take whatever they like, perhaps commit a rape or two, maybe even push the boat out and offer them a cup of tea, all in the name of avoiding a prison sentence? It's an impossible situation.

Drumstick wrote:Rightey, in this story, what happened to the people trying to ransack the farmer's vehicles (the ones that weren't shot)?

We had a case like this in the UK many years ago, with a farmer by the name of Tony Martin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

Whilst I obviously don't agree with murder, I do fall down on the side of one's rights going out the window once you trespass on private property (especially when you are intent on stealing from and potentially causing injury to others). These cases could well be argued as self-defence. The bottom line is that neither of these incidents would have occurred if these people had stayed away.

I mean is anyone seriously not going to try and defend their family and belongings to the absolute fullest extent? It's absurd. What is a homeowner supposed to do? Let an intruder run wild, take whatever they like, perhaps commit a rape or two, maybe even push the boat out and offer them a cup of tea, all in the name of avoiding a prison sentence? It's an impossible situation.

From the news stories I've read the others ran off after the gun shots, no one else was injured apart from the farmers wife who got punched in the face by one of the intruders.

That's an interesting story and has some parallels although it seems he was living alone. I find it odd that the prosecutors of the farmer argued that he waited up for the burglars and shot them in revenge for previous burglaries. Wouldn't that imply that either this guy stayed awake every night for who knows how long or he got burgled so regularly that he could basically predict when it would happen which implies some serious failings on the part of the police to take action?

If youre on someones property when you shouldnt be and your intentions are clearly hostile then you have to accept the consequences. Dont want to get shot, beaten or thrown down a flight of stairs then dont break into someones property, its not that hard. It pisses me off when I see people saying you should call the police or use restraint, my daughters room is across the hall from my wife and me, if I opened my bedroom door in the night and saw a stranger standing there, theyre not leaving my house with their legs in one piece. I would take absoutley no responsibility for my actions, they were in my home when they shouldnt have been, if they didnt want to get smashed to pieces then they shouldnt have broken into my home.

Having read what happened it sounds like everyone is lying. I do not know what really happened. In my opinion they were there to steal and cause havoc. The farmer came out an point blank shot one of them as they tried to make off.

Once you break into someone's home you should forfeit all your rights really. The owner/renter shouldn't be prosecuted for beating/stabbing/shooting someone who's broken into their home, even if the trespasser ends up being killed.

Lagamorph wrote:Once you break into someone's home you should forfeit all your rights really. The owner/renter shouldn't be prosecuted for beating/stabbing/shooting someone who's broken into their home, even if the trespasser ends up being killed.

When is clear that someone has broken into your home then I think I agree but there’s so many cases where it’s not clear, especially in America where you will get shot for just walking onto someone’s driveway. Being a postman there in rural areas must be terrifying.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Once you break into someone's home you should forfeit all your rights really. The owner/renter shouldn't be prosecuted for beating/stabbing/shooting someone who's broken into their home, even if the trespasser ends up being killed.

When is clear that someone has broken into your home then I think I agree but there’s so many cases where it’s not clear, especially in America where you will get shot for just walking onto someone’s driveway. Being a postman there in rural areas must be terrifying.

The uniform and van with USPS plastered on it would be a big tip off, as would the fact that youre the same postman that delivered mail the last time.

As others have said, if you break into my home and my family is in the house - you're dead.

I'm not a sadist that would tie the burglar up and stab them a hundred times or beat them excessively or anything like that, but if I have to throw you down the stairs or stab you to protect my family then so be it.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Once you break into someone's home you should forfeit all your rights really. The owner/renter shouldn't be prosecuted for beating/stabbing/shooting someone who's broken into their home, even if the trespasser ends up being killed.

When is clear that someone has broken into your home then I think I agree but there’s so many cases where it’s not clear, especially in America where you will get shot for just walking onto someone’s driveway. Being a postman there in rural areas must be terrifying.

Yeah I don't necessarily apply the same thought towards someone just being on your driveway/garden, only once they actually break into your home.