Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK

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Moggy
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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Moggy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:18 pm

Preezy wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Preezy wrote:That's probably the biggest reason I hate London - you can't move for all the knife-wielding fishermen :roll:


Who mentioned London? KK couldn’t think of a single reason why somebody might have a knife on them. When there are lots of reasons people might have one.

I mentioned London, it's the nearest city to where I live. But alright, I also hate Birmingham and Coventry because of all the knife-wielding farmers ;)

I think in reality, police officers are smart enough to tell the difference between a fisherman carrying a knife (do they really carry knives? I'm not convinced but ok I'll allow it for this) and a hoodlum. The boat is a big giveaway as well.


You don’t need a boat for fishing. We have lake and river banks.

Of course police are smart enough to tell the difference. My point is a blanket “6 months for carrying a knife!” law is strawberry floating stupid. There are loads of reasons people might have knives.

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Preezy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:22 pm

Moggy wrote:You don’t need a boat for fishing. We have lake and river banks.

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Hyperion
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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Hyperion » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:24 pm

I get my fish from Waitrose, why don't these povvo knife-wielding fisherman do that?

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Skarjo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:31 pm

Hold on are the Fishermen zombies or what? I'm well confused.

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by KK » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:39 pm

You're taking a sentence literally rather than in the principal and reality it would be used in, and creating a strawman argument out of context for which a person would be stopped and searched to begin with: the lone fisherman sans any other equipment, presumably nowhere near the sea, with no boat and with no fish but for his one solitary knife. Or the handyman with no van, no equipment, no papers and no job, randomly stopped by the most inept policeman in history, but for his one stanley knife. For God's sake's would somebody please stand up for this miscarriage of justice that is about to take place.

To me, the idea of having a no-nonsense approach to carrying a knife which leads to a mandatory jail sentence is a sound one because the environment it would be employed in would be pretty obvious.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Moggy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:54 pm

KK wrote:You're taking a sentence literally rather than in the principal and reality it would be used in, and creating a strawman argument out of context for which a person would be stopped and searched to begin with: the lone fisherman sans any other equipment, presumably nowhere near the sea, with no boat and with no fish but for his one solitary knife. Or the handyman with no van, no equipment, no papers and no job, randomly stopped by the most inept policeman in history, but for his one stanley knife. For God's sake's would somebody please stand up for this miscarriage of justice that is about to take place.

To me, the idea of having a no-nonsense approach to carrying a knife which leads to a mandatory jail sentence is a sound one because the environment it would be employed in would be pretty obvious.


At least we’ve got past your blanket 6 months sentence. I could give you plenty more examples of people that might carry a knife but not be stab happy gangbangers, but I’ve got a feeling that’d just be a pedantic strawman.

So let’s move on. “The environment it would be employed in would be pretty obvious”. It is and that’s another problem, you would be targeting ethnic minority kids in inner cities. No nuance, no looking at circumstances or how it might further destroy a young life, just lock ‘em up.

I’m not against jail sentences for carrying knives, but there needs to be thought put into things. A scared 12 year old who slips a knife into his pocket, is not the same thing as a 19 year old gang member who carries it so he can attack a rival gang member.

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Knoyleo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:00 pm

Relevant thread about the assumption that common sense exceptions will just apply in lawmaking:


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Skarjo
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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Skarjo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:00 pm

What about a scared 12 year old who slips a knife into his pocket to protect against these roving gangs of zombie fishermen?

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Lagamorph » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:02 pm

Skarjo wrote:What about a scared 12 year old who slips a knife into his pocket to protect against these roving gangs of zombie fishermen?

Arrest them since everyone knows a knife is useless against a Zombie Fisherman. They can attack from a distance with their Zombie Fishing rods and nets so they never get close enough for a knife.

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by KK » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:14 pm

Moggy wrote:At least we’ve got past your blanket 6 months sentence. I could give you plenty more examples of people that might carry a knife but not be stab happy gangbangers, but I’ve got a feeling that’d just be a pedantic strawman.

So let’s move on. “The environment it would be employed in would be pretty obvious”. It is and that’s another problem, you would be targeting ethnic minority kids in inner cities. No nuance, no looking at circumstances or how it might further destroy a young life, just lock ‘em up.

I’m not against jail sentences for carrying knives, but there needs to be thought put into things. A scared 12 year old who slips a knife into his pocket, is not the same thing as a 19 year old gang member who carries it so he can attack a rival gang member.

To be stopped and searched to begin with there needs to be reasonable grounds to believe there has been or is about to be a crime committed, or think that the person is in possession of a prohibited item, so why would a handyman be getting stopped to begin with? He wouldn't.

And in some cases ethnic minorities are unfairly targeted, but demographics and stats are always going to be skewed in one direction for certain things if they're the ones doing that particular crime. It's unavoidable. If crime is coming from teenagers in Luton you're not then going to stop and search geriatric Jenny in the Cotswolds.

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Knoyleo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:17 pm

KK wrote:To be stopped and searched to begin with there needs to be reasonable grounds to believe there has been or is about to be a crime committed, or think that the person is in possession of a prohibited item, so why would a handyman be getting stopped to begin with? He wouldn't.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/h ... r-11567419
Handyman brutally murdered man over £40 gardening job and then hung blood-stained jeans from tree

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Ironhide » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:42 pm

What's to stop people from sharpening a piece of metal and fashioning a homemade blade, a blanket ban won't stop someone who wants a knife or other sharp implement from acquiring one.

Knife crime is certainly a serious problem but can only be tackled by addressing the social issues that are driving it.

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Skarjo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:47 pm

Yea you're right we should just have them inside kinder eggs.

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Green Gecko » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:38 pm

I've been stopped and search just for walking home when it was dark in a group with maybe one can of beer in a suburb of a small town. If I happened to be carrying a leatherman multi tool that includes a can opener, scissors, a file and a screwdriver should that mean 6 months prison? Silly.

But yeah, I have a 3.5in locking blade on a multi tool that I use literally every day as a tradesman and an artist. I often forget I'm carrying it any it isn't legal except for a work related reason. But maybe it won't be problem anyway since I appear to have lost it and they cost about 70 strawberry floating quid :x

Anyway I don't see anything wrong with this leglisation, it might just make getting tools more difficult.

What it won't do is anything about the problem a simple screwdriver or chisel can wound or kill easily.

I bought a chisel from a flee market the other way that was about 100 years old. It was easily sharp enough to stab anyone in the heart and just walk away.

I had no idea what the strawberry float a zombie knife was. There's no reason to carry an outlandish knife in public, it's the equivalent of brandishing chrome. Grow some balls and learn martial arts, they're not illegal to carry.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Moggy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:42 pm

Green Gecko wrote:I've been stopped and search just for walking home when it was dark in a group with maybe one can of beer. If I happened to be carrying a leatherman multi tool that includes a can opener, scissors, a file and a screwdriver would that mean 6 months prison? Silly.

But yeah, I have a 3.5in locking blade on a multi tool that I use literally every day as a tradesman and an artist. I often forget I'm carrying it any it isn't legal except for a work related reason. But maybe it won't be problem anyway since I appear to have lost it and they cost about 70 strawberry floating quid :x


Careful, you are slipping into pedantic straw man territory here. ;)

That’s what I was trying to say before Skarjo (Skarjo :x ) distracted us with zombie fishermen, just having a blanket 6 months sentence is ridiculous. There are genuine reasons for carrying a knife. And even if there are no good reasons, there are differences in circumstances that mean a 6 months sentence isn’t desirable.

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Green Gecko » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:52 pm

The thing I probably used the most is the box cutter / letter opener. If for example I'm taking deliveries I have a thing in my pocket that will take of care of the insane amount of hardcore wrapping tape some suppliers use to take care of lost/missing claims. I mean things that are literally impossible to open with your fingers.

I also have equipment that regularly needs nuts tightening so I use the spring loaded plyers. I mean they're basically snap back plyers with a blade in.

Knife makers are wising up to it though, producing various legal carry and even flight safe tools. Really you should carry a lighter version. But those traditional Swiss style mini tools are almost useless, go loose, impractical to sharpen, impossible to open while retaining your fingernails. Toys really.

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Ironhide
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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Ironhide » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:23 pm

I think most people have several potentially lethal weapons already in their possession it's just that most people aren't likely to ever attack anyone with them.

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by floydfreak » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:01 pm

John Lewis salesman in a posh area

Salesman - "hello there can i help you sir"

Gangstar chav wannabe "manz iz looking for knifes blud where they at blud"

Salesman - "Excuse me sir this is the homeware section what sort of knifes are you looking for what dishes are you looking to use them for "

Chav "Manz wantz to cut up some chicken you get me, be stabbing up the chicken like manz in KFC swear down y'know wat i iz saying G"

Salesman - "no not quite sir"

Chav - "Manz needz knifes for bear skinz innit"

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Lagamorph » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:51 pm

floydfreak wrote:John Lewis salesman in a posh area

Salesman - "hello there can i help you sir"

Gangstar chav wannabe "manz iz looking for knifes blud where they at blud"

Salesman - "Excuse me sir this is the homeware section what sort of knifes are you looking for what dishes are you looking to use them for "

Chav "Manz wantz to cut up some chicken you get me, be stabbing up the chicken like manz in KFC swear down y'know wat i iz saying G"

Salesman - "no not quite sir"

Chav - "Manz needz knifes for bear skinz innit"

That or we'll see a drastic increase in failed robberies using butter knives.

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PostRe: Delivery of knives bought online to be banned in the UK
by Rightey » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:04 pm

What a bizarre law. :|

I used to work in a store in university and it was so annoying have to find the box cutters to open packages and the like I just started carrying my own knife on a key chain.

It was this one actually...

https://www.swissarmy.com/us/en/Product ... 0.8463.MW3

It was very handy and came in useful a bunch of times outside of my work. The only reason I stopped carrying it was because I bought a modern car with a key fob, and it felt too bulky to carrying both together.

As Captain Red Dog said, it seems like a more sensible solution would be to focus on the actual causes of this kind of stuff rather than just banning knives. Next up will forks I suppose :fp:

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