Detroit: Become Human (PS4)

Anything to do with games at all.

Favourite Quantic Dream game?

Omikron: The Nomad Soul (PC/DC - 1999)
2
6%
Fahrenheit (PS2/Xbox/PC - 2005)
9
28%
Heavy Rain (PS3 - 2010)
19
59%
Beyond: Two Souls (PS3 - 2013)
2
6%
 
Total votes: 32
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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Samuel_1 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:06 pm

I would disagree with that, these androids are childlike in the emotions and related responses. Such feelings are at the naceient stage and lack depth. It is "become" human after all.

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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Samuel_1 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:09 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:Yup. As a writer you can, and absolutely should, demonstrate a character's childlike lack of nuance...with nuance. Look at AI: Artificial Intelligence for example. When Gigolo Joe finds the dead body of a client he doesn't turn to the camera and state "I'm scared" which is almost exactly what the kidnapper does in this demo.

Also, the (human) police captain does exactly the same. He doesn't trust the negotiator and just straight up states this.

I'm sorry mate, but children routinely state the basic emotions thar they are feeling

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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Tafdolphin » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:12 pm

Samuel_1 wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:Yup. As a writer you can, and absolutely should, demonstrate a character's childlike lack of nuance...with nuance. Look at AI: Artificial Intelligence for example. When Gigolo Joe finds the dead body of a client he doesn't turn to the camera and state "I'm scared" which is almost exactly what the kidnapper does in this demo.

Also, the (human) police captain does exactly the same. He doesn't trust the negotiator and just straight up states this.

I'm sorry mate, but children routinely state the basic emotions thar they are feeling


Your child is not a written character

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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Samuel_1 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:17 pm

What? I realise my nephew isn't, my point is that a child will often say: I'm sad, I'm happy, I don't believe you, I'm scared. To have an android with similarly undeveloped emotional responses, isn't unreasonable in my view.

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Tafdolphin
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Tafdolphin » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:26 pm

And my point is you're making as if actual people and written characters are the same. It's a false equivalence.

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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Samuel_1 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:38 pm

No it isn't, if you are comfortable with the notion that an androids emotions are childlike, that they are equivalent to children, then writing their responses in an equivalent manner is entirely acceptable. Remember, I did say that the writing is passable, it's not ground breaking.
There are obviously parallels between real life and written characters, displaying these is hardly a crime, nor is it revolutionary.

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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Tafdolphin » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:43 pm

I'll write a longer response later as I'm busy now, but you're mistaking 'adherence to real life occurrences' for 'passable writing.'

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NickSCFC
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by NickSCFC » Thu May 17, 2018 11:12 am


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Oblomov Boblomov wrote:I remember playing through one of the female character's campaigns in Tekken 2 just so I could desperately try and fit in a wank for the ending video
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by imbusydoctorwho » Thu May 17, 2018 3:03 pm

Review Embargo lifts the day before release.

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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Tafdolphin » Thu May 17, 2018 3:27 pm

Samuel_1 wrote:No it isn't, if you are comfortable with the notion that an androids emotions are childlike, that they are equivalent to children, then writing their responses in an equivalent manner is entirely acceptable. Remember, I did say that the writing is passable, it's not ground breaking.
There are obviously parallels between real life and written characters, displaying these is hardly a crime, nor is it revolutionary.


I never did respond to this. Let me give it a go now:

First, when writing characters, realism is not what you're aiming for. Even the theatrical concept of realism used in shows like The Wire and films like Amore, is not actual realism. People do not talk in the real world as they do in films and it is rare in film that people talk like they do in real life. Real communication is messy, often leading to dead ends, retreats and rehashes. It can be unplanned, it can be pointless.

Secondly, written characters have a purpose within a story. They are there to represent something, or express something or achieve something. They are the hero, the villain, the bystander etc etc. Each character serves this role in a variety of ways depending on the medium. In visual mediums such as films and (most) games, they express themselves, and therefore their purpose, through speech and movement. Above all however, they are there to entertain.

So. My problem with the Become Human demo was this: the characters in the game straight up announced this purpose. They tell the player character why they are there and what they are feeling directly. The police captain: "I don't like you!" The child: "I'm scared!" The kidnapper: "I trust you." There is absolutely no depth or skill of dialogue here.

Your argument is that a child, or an android with the sensibilities of a child, might well say something like this in reality as they lack the nuance of age or experience. Ignoring that the adult human characters suffer from this in the demo too, you are right. In reality, a child does state things outright. However, in a created and curated context such as a movie or video game, the writers are not aiming for this reality, they are aiming for dialogue that communicates the character of the character as well as their place in the story. They are pieces of entertainment and are there to entertain.

Again let's go back to my AI example:

David: When will you come back for me?
Monica: I'm not, David. You'll have to be here by yourself.
David: Alone?
Monica: [Monica's voice breaks with tears in her eyes] With Teddy.
David: [David begins to uncontrollably cry] No. No, no, no, no, no, no! No, Mommy, please! No, no! Please, Mommy, no!
Monica: Shh. Shh. Shh. They will destroy you, David. Please, David.
David: No! No, Mommy! I'm sorry I broke myself. I'm so sorry I cut your hair off... And I'm sorry I hurt you and I hurt Martin.
Monica: [Monica starts screaming as she begins to cry, holding David away from holding her] I have to go! I have to go! Stop it! Stop it! I have to go now.
David: [Monica stands up as David continues to try and hold her] Mommy, no! Mommy! Mommy, if Pinocchio became a real... and I become a real boy, can I come home?


David, a robot child, is scared here. He is terrified as the one person he loves in the world is leaving him. At no point does he simply state "I'm scared" as perhaps a real child might because that would be obvious and boring. The script instead illustrates his emotions in a number of ways; his crying, his childlike belief that fixing that which is already broken will make as if it never happened, apologising. There is nuance here in expressing an un-nuanced reaction. This script is not striving for a blunt reality, a reality which would be far more boring, but is aiming to communicate to the audience, in an interesting way, how David is feeling.

In this demo, there is none of this. Even if the demo was aiming for absolute reality, it contrasts this with its heavily stylised setting and context. It is demonstrably not aiming for natural, realistic speech. It is a pulp fiction whose dialogue lacks even the very basic skills require to express its characters' inner purpose without stating them in as many words. Which is boring. Again, this is a piece of entertainment and the dialogue is there to entertain. In this demo, it absolutely did not.

Phew.

EDIT: Sorry if any of that sounds patronising, I just wanted to lay my points out as clearly as possible.

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NickSCFC
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by NickSCFC » Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 pm

Hmm, so I went off the building with the suspect killing myself in the process but saving Emma.

Mission successful :lol:

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Oblomov Boblomov wrote:I remember playing through one of the female character's campaigns in Tekken 2 just so I could desperately try and fit in a wank for the ending video
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by NickSCFC » Tue May 22, 2018 1:41 pm


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Oblomov Boblomov wrote:I remember playing through one of the female character's campaigns in Tekken 2 just so I could desperately try and fit in a wank for the ending video
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Tafdolphin » Tue May 22, 2018 2:40 pm

Those facial graphics, especially on the lady at the start are remarkable.

I am very excited about this game, for almost the exact opposite reasons as usual.

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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by imbusydoctorwho » Tue May 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Great looking trailer, really getting me excited for it, just hope it doesn't disappoints.

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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Floex » Tue May 22, 2018 3:01 pm

It'll be real interesting to read the reviews :slol:

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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by HailToTheKingBaby! » Tue May 22, 2018 4:21 pm

First review has come out early from N4G (no idea how good/reliable they are as not read their stuff before) but they gave it a 9/10 and didn't seem to like Beyond: Two Souls so hopefully it's a sign of it being a return to form (or finding some form depending how you felt about Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit).. http://scoreattacks.com/2018/05/21/detr ... -you-know/

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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Tafdolphin » Tue May 22, 2018 4:33 pm

HailToTheKingBaby! wrote:First review has come out early from N4G (no idea how good/reliable they are as not read their stuff before) but they gave it a 9/10 and didn't seem to like Beyond: Two Souls so hopefully it's a sign of it being a return to form (or finding some form depending how you felt about Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit).. http://scoreattacks.com/2018/05/21/detr ... -you-know/


Um, that's not N4G. That's some random dude's blog

When you’re presented with a heavy narrative form of entertainment from a person with inconsistency like David Cage, you won’t have any choice but to be skeptical the least. However, even with his disgrace painted around Beyond: Two Soul’s failure in the past, thankfully, I think he was able to redeem himself, for now, with Detroit: Become Human.


EDIT: N4G has in fact reported that another site (Spieltimes?) reported that a random blog and a ResetEra user gave it great reviews.

https://www.spieltimes.com/news/detroit ... pressions/

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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by HailToTheKingBaby! » Tue May 22, 2018 5:09 pm

Ah yeah sorry. It was linked from n4g so assumed was their review, my bad.

Found it here.. hence my confusion :fp:
http://n4g.com/news/2171687/detroit-bec ... re-attacks

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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Samuel_1 » Thu May 24, 2018 1:15 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:No it isn't, if you are comfortable with the notion that an androids emotions are childlike, that they are equivalent to children, then writing their responses in an equivalent manner is entirely acceptable. Remember, I did say that the writing is passable, it's not ground breaking.
There are obviously parallels between real life and written characters, displaying these is hardly a crime, nor is it revolutionary.


I never did respond to this. Let me give it a go now:

First, when writing characters, realism is not what you're aiming for. Even the theatrical concept of realism used in shows like The Wire and films like Amore, is not actual realism. People do not talk in the real world as they do in films and it is rare in film that people talk like they do in real life. Real communication is messy, often leading to dead ends, retreats and rehashes. It can be unplanned, it can be pointless.

Secondly, written characters have a purpose within a story. They are there to represent something, or express something or achieve something. They are the hero, the villain, the bystander etc etc. Each character serves this role in a variety of ways depending on the medium. In visual mediums such as films and (most) games, they express themselves, and therefore their purpose, through speech and movement. Above all however, they are there to entertain.

So. My problem with the Become Human demo was this: the characters in the game straight up announced this purpose. They tell the player character why they are there and what they are feeling directly. The police captain: "I don't like you!" The child: "I'm scared!" The kidnapper: "I trust you." There is absolutely no depth or skill of dialogue here.

Your argument is that a child, or an android with the sensibilities of a child, might well say something like this in reality as they lack the nuance of age or experience. Ignoring that the adult human characters suffer from this in the demo too, you are right. In reality, a child does state things outright. However, in a created and curated context such as a movie or video game, the writers are not aiming for this reality, they are aiming for dialogue that communicates the character of the character as well as their place in the story. They are pieces of entertainment and are there to entertain.

Again let's go back to my AI example:

David: When will you come back for me?
Monica: I'm not, David. You'll have to be here by yourself.
David: Alone?
Monica: [Monica's voice breaks with tears in her eyes] With Teddy.
David: [David begins to uncontrollably cry] No. No, no, no, no, no, no! No, Mommy, please! No, no! Please, Mommy, no!
Monica: Shh. Shh. Shh. They will destroy you, David. Please, David.
David: No! No, Mommy! I'm sorry I broke myself. I'm so sorry I cut your hair off... And I'm sorry I hurt you and I hurt Martin.
Monica: [Monica starts screaming as she begins to cry, holding David away from holding her] I have to go! I have to go! Stop it! Stop it! I have to go now.
David: [Monica stands up as David continues to try and hold her] Mommy, no! Mommy! Mommy, if Pinocchio became a real... and I become a real boy, can I come home?


David, a robot child, is scared here. He is terrified as the one person he loves in the world is leaving him. At no point does he simply state "I'm scared" as perhaps a real child might because that would be obvious and boring. The script instead illustrates his emotions in a number of ways; his crying, his childlike belief that fixing that which is already broken will make as if it never happened, apologising. There is nuance here in expressing an un-nuanced reaction. This script is not striving for a blunt reality, a reality which would be far more boring, but is aiming to communicate to the audience, in an interesting way, how David is feeling.

In this demo, there is none of this. Even if the demo was aiming for absolute reality, it contrasts this with its heavily stylised setting and context. It is demonstrably not aiming for natural, realistic speech. It is a pulp fiction whose dialogue lacks even the very basic skills require to express its characters' inner purpose without stating them in as many words. Which is boring. Again, this is a piece of entertainment and the dialogue is there to entertain. In this demo, it absolutely did not.

Phew.

EDIT: Sorry if any of that sounds patronising, I just wanted to lay my points out as clearly as possible.

I understand your view, I just don't share it, well, not entirely. The writing is somewhat cliched and lacks nuance, but for a video game, at the current time, I think it's passable. We'll have to agree to differ on this one. I think there are certainly games that do a better job, but there are also others that do far worse. Of course it is more important in this particular genre, but even within this context I still maintain it is passable and may well go towards offering an enjoyable and well rounded experience.

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Photek
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PostRe: Detroit: Become Human (PS4) | Quantic Dream | out 25th May | Demo out now
by Photek » Thu May 24, 2018 1:39 pm

I can't watch AI, I find the end of it far too upsetting.

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