The Politics Thread 3.0

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:02 pm

Grumpy David wrote:Can you even renationalise industries whilst in the EU on the scale Corbyn wants? My understanding is it is forbidden under state aid rules that the EU has set up. It's often the far left argument that the EU is too pro free markets.

Would people be okay with the Canadian deal? Something like 98% of trade is tariff free without needing to pay any fees or have freedom of movement or restrictions on free trade deals with non EU states.


Only if it covered the financial markets. My main concern about Brexit is the effect on our financial services. However I suspect that some EU members will not want this and will seize on this to take a share of our the city of londons market share. I think the only way of us ensuring that is membership of the single market.

I would like to think that we would be proactive about opening up immigration in fields that need it. I.e. the health service, farming industry etc so freedom of movement doesn't have to be a barrier. But ultimately what's more important the city or free movement? That I think is the important question in the negotiations.

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Meep
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Meep » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:31 pm

Anyone who even slightly buys into rubbish about the tories being on the side of working families needs to listen to their wealthy MPs cheering as they vote to give mine declining pay for the eighth year running.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by lex-man » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:56 pm

Does anyone else find it weird that Corbyn is a Brexiter but the Leave.EU crowd hate him with a passion but young pro-EU people seem to deeply love him?

He is arguably the most pro Brexit MP.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Dowbocop » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:05 pm

Grumpy David wrote:Can you even renationalise industries whilst in the EU on the scale Corbyn wants? My understanding is it is forbidden under state aid rules that the EU has set up. It's often the far left argument that the EU is too pro free markets.

This has been my main route to getting more onboard with Brexit. I voted Remain and I am sad that we will leave the EU because I agree with its general aims of continental unity. However, we all know it's not perfect, and now we're leaving I agree we should "make the best of it." If Brexit allows the UK government to take back control (!) of our infrastructure and renationalise industries as part of a general move towards making our country more progressive and fair, then I am all for it. Is this more likely to happen under Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Samuel_1 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:57 pm

A really Interesting read, it makes much more sense of Corbyn's stance. I now understand his point of view.

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KK
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by KK » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:23 pm

Corbyn sure showing his true colours tonight, eh. I mean it should have been obvious before, but it really is now...

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:20 am

The Tories cheered because they defeated a Labour amendment but the perception of that cheering - given recent events when public sector workers have performed heroically is very harsh. Looking like you're celebrating denying better pay for nurses/police/ fireman is not good and people's reaction to that is completely understandable.
I wouldn't have minded a better pay rise but I didn't really expect one. I still get my yearly increment but the final one of those is this year.

Hime wrote:This is nonsense, Photek finally posts something factual and he gets burned. ;)
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:27 am

Denster wrote:The Tories cheered because they defeated a Labour amendment but the perception of that cheering - given recent events when public sector workers have performed heroically is very harsh. Looking like you're celebrating denying better pay for nurses/police/ fireman is not good and people's reaction to that is completely understandable.
I wouldn't have minded a better pay rise but I didn't really expect one. I still get my yearly increment but the final one of those is this year.


Yeah, the image of Tories cheering and celebrating, really plays into Labour hands. You’d think that they would be aware enough to realise how bad it would look, but they seem blind to it which gives an easy win to the left who can say “look at how the evil Tories cheer that the Grenfell firemen are not getting a pay rise!”.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Rex Kramer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:37 am

Don't worry, I'm sure the demonisation of public sector workers as layabouts hoarding amazing pensions will kick back in again in a few weeks.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by lex-man » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:01 am

Lucien wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:Can you even renationalise industries whilst in the EU on the scale Corbyn wants? My understanding is it is forbidden under state aid rules that the EU has set up. It's often the far left argument that the EU is too pro free markets.


I don't think you can. I remember reading that current NHS privatisation was irreversible while we're in the EU, and how some article would likely never be changed in regards to that because it would require all nation states to sign off on it, and it's likely there'll always be a Tory-like government in one country that opposes nationalisation.

Edit: http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/09/eu-m ... alisation/


That article has some serious flaws. It would be perfectly legal for corbyn to renationalisation the railway. There are some laws that forbids the renationalisation in the case of failing industry to stop competition. Also we already nationalised a whole bunch of banks not that long ago.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:07 am

lex-man wrote:
Lucien wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:Can you even renationalise industries whilst in the EU on the scale Corbyn wants? My understanding is it is forbidden under state aid rules that the EU has set up. It's often the far left argument that the EU is too pro free markets.


I don't think you can. I remember reading that current NHS privatisation was irreversible while we're in the EU, and how some article would likely never be changed in regards to that because it would require all nation states to sign off on it, and it's likely there'll always be a Tory-like government in one country that opposes nationalisation.

Edit: http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/09/eu-m ... alisation/


That article has some serious flaws. It would be perfectly legal for corbyn to renationalisation the railway. There are some laws that forbids the renationalisation in the case of failing industry to stop competition. Also we already nationalised a whole bunch of banks not that long ago.


If it’s ok for the French government to own at least one of our electricity suppliers (EDF) then I can’t see that it would be a problem for some trains to be owned by the British government. ;)

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by lex-man » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:26 am

Moggy wrote:
Denster wrote:The Tories cheered because they defeated a Labour amendment but the perception of that cheering - given recent events when public sector workers have performed heroically is very harsh. Looking like you're celebrating denying better pay for nurses/police/ fireman is not good and people's reaction to that is completely understandable.
I wouldn't have minded a better pay rise but I didn't really expect one. I still get my yearly increment but the final one of those is this year.


Yeah, the image of Tories cheering and celebrating, really plays into Labour hands. You’d think that they would be aware enough to realise how bad it would look, but they seem blind to it which gives an easy win to the left who can say “look at how the evil Tories cheer that the Grenfell firemen are not getting a pay rise!”.


I agree that the Tories weren't cheering at cutting the civil services pay but cheering defeating Labour shows they're not really thinking about the effects of their action. It makes them seem uninterested in the citizens of this country and only interested in political point scoring. Also this has been ongoing for seven years now which makes it all the worse.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Hexx » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:07 am


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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Preezy » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:21 am

I really don't like that head councillor guy, right bellend.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:43 am

Moggy wrote:
Denster wrote:The Tories cheered because they defeated a Labour amendment but the perception of that cheering - given recent events when public sector workers have performed heroically is very harsh. Looking like you're celebrating denying better pay for nurses/police/ fireman is not good and people's reaction to that is completely understandable.
I wouldn't have minded a better pay rise but I didn't really expect one. I still get my yearly increment but the final one of those is this year.


Yeah, the image of Tories cheering and celebrating, really plays into Labour hands. You’d think that they would be aware enough to realise how bad it would look, but they seem blind to it which gives an easy win to the left who can say “look at how the evil Tories cheer that the Grenfell firemen are not getting a pay rise!”.



Which is not what they were cheering but that conclusion can easily be drawn. Foolish really but if you watch the debates at times - it's almost school boyish levels of behaviour.

Hime wrote:This is nonsense, Photek finally posts something factual and he gets burned. ;)
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:11 pm

Denster wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Denster wrote:The Tories cheered because they defeated a Labour amendment but the perception of that cheering - given recent events when public sector workers have performed heroically is very harsh. Looking like you're celebrating denying better pay for nurses/police/ fireman is not good and people's reaction to that is completely understandable.
I wouldn't have minded a better pay rise but I didn't really expect one. I still get my yearly increment but the final one of those is this year.


Yeah, the image of Tories cheering and celebrating, really plays into Labour hands. You’d think that they would be aware enough to realise how bad it would look, but they seem blind to it which gives an easy win to the left who can say “look at how the evil Tories cheer that the Grenfell firemen are not getting a pay rise!”.



Which is not what they were cheering but that conclusion can easily be drawn. Foolish really but if you watch the debates at times - it's almost school boyish levels of behaviour.


I never said it was why they were cheering but I 100% guarantee the footage will be used that way. And they only have themselves to blame for their crass celebrations.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Dowbocop » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:13 pm

Denster wrote:The Tories cheered because they defeated a Labour amendment but the perception of that cheering - given recent events when public sector workers have performed heroically is very harsh. Looking like you're celebrating denying better pay for nurses/police/ fireman is not good and people's reaction to that is completely understandable.
I wouldn't have minded a better pay rise but I didn't really expect one. I still get my yearly increment but the final one of those is this year.

I know you probably know this yourself but just to clear it up for any non-NHSers in the thread: the increment is not a pay rise, it's an increase to reflect an employee's continued professional development in a role and the increased utility of the employee to the trust as a result.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:53 pm

Dowbocop wrote:
Denster wrote:The Tories cheered because they defeated a Labour amendment but the perception of that cheering - given recent events when public sector workers have performed heroically is very harsh. Looking like you're celebrating denying better pay for nurses/police/ fireman is not good and people's reaction to that is completely understandable.
I wouldn't have minded a better pay rise but I didn't really expect one. I still get my yearly increment but the final one of those is this year.

I know you probably know this yourself but just to clear it up for any non-NHSers in the thread: the increment is not a pay rise, it's an increase to reflect an employee's continued professional development in a role and the increased utility of the employee to the trust as a result.


It's a pay rise.

Hime wrote:This is nonsense, Photek finally posts something factual and he gets burned. ;)
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:57 pm

One earned by working an extra year and continues for seven years. The professional development is assessed by the staff and their line manager and only in exceptional cases is it not granted as a formality. At all levels.

Hime wrote:This is nonsense, Photek finally posts something factual and he gets burned. ;)
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by lex-man » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:18 pm

Lucien wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Lucien wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:Can you even renationalise industries whilst in the EU on the scale Corbyn wants? My understanding is it is forbidden under state aid rules that the EU has set up. It's often the far left argument that the EU is too pro free markets.


I don't think you can. I remember reading that current NHS privatisation was irreversible while we're in the EU, and how some article would likely never be changed in regards to that because it would require all nation states to sign off on it, and it's likely there'll always be a Tory-like government in one country that opposes nationalisation.

Edit: http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/09/eu-m ... alisation/


That article has some serious flaws. It would be perfectly legal for corbyn to renationalisation the railway. There are some laws that forbids the renationalisation in the case of failing industry to stop competition. Also we already nationalised a whole bunch of banks not that long ago.


The banks being nationalised would have come under necessary emergency measures I'm sure (if the author is correct).



From looking at it the government would have to put the contract out to tender but there is no rules forbidding a government from tending its own bid. That is how they deal with the problem in Germany.

https://theconversation.com/fact-check- ... ways-61180


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