The Politics Thread 3.0

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lex-man
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by lex-man » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:45 pm

Lagamorph wrote:Corbyn is a die hard Brexiteer, far moreso than May & co. The only reason Labour are currently in favour of the single market is because they're not in power. If they were Corbyn would never allow it and he'd likely dismiss anyone on the cabinet who so much as mentioned it.
Corbyn may be 'idealistic' but he'd very happily destroy the foundations of the UK economy to achieve his own ideals, and as we've seen he's more than willing to put his personal ideals ahead of those of the party and the country as a whole.


The single market thing is only a transitional move that Corbyn has agreed to for party unity reasons. Labour's plan is still hard Brexit just a bit slower.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:38 am

lex-man wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:Corbyn is a die hard Brexiteer, far moreso than May & co. The only reason Labour are currently in favour of the single market is because they're not in power. If they were Corbyn would never allow it and he'd likely dismiss anyone on the cabinet who so much as mentioned it.
Corbyn may be 'idealistic' but he'd very happily destroy the foundations of the UK economy to achieve his own ideals, and as we've seen he's more than willing to put his personal ideals ahead of those of the party and the country as a whole.


The single market thing is only a transitional move that Corbyn has agreed to for party unity reasons. Labour's plan is still hard Brexit just a bit slower.

Rocsteady wrote:IIRC weren't Labour planning a similarly hard Brexit but also planning to raise corporation tax? I'm really not certain that would be a great move in this climate despite on principle supporting such progressive taxation.


This is just it, whilst May is being more overt in her disdain for and dismantling of various safety nets in the UK, Corbyn wants to (whether he realises it or not) undermine the systems that actually fund those safety nets. Ultimately they're both going to accomplish the same disastrous result, they just want to go about it in different ways.

Karl wrote:So in the worst case scenario - based on your assumptions, not current Labour policy - he would have the same 'hard Brexit' policy as May, right? But probably without the hatred of civil liberties and human rights, or wanting to dismantle the NHS, or being so thoroughly anti-immigrant.

So... they aren't just as bad as each other, then?

As for civil liberties, let's not forget that Corbyn did not oppose the Investigatory Powers Bill/Snoopers charter, he chose to abstain on it instead and had the rest of the Labour party do the same, ensuring that it went through with a mere 15 votes against. So you certainly can't call Corbyn a champion, or really even a supporter, of civil liberties.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Karl » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:46 am

Lagamorph wrote:
Karl wrote:So in the worst case scenario - based on your assumptions, not current Labour policy - he would have the same 'hard Brexit' policy as May, right? But probably without the hatred of civil liberties and human rights, or wanting to dismantle the NHS, or being so thoroughly anti-immigrant.

So... they aren't just as bad as each other, then?

As for civil liberties, let's not forget that Corbyn did not oppose the Investigatory Powers Bill/Snoopers charter, he chose to abstain on it instead and had the rest of the Labour party do the same, ensuring that it went through with a mere 15 votes against. So you certainly can't call Corbyn a champion, or really even a supporter, of civil liberties.

Sure, okay? I'm not some kind of huge Corbyn fan, I don't think the sun shines out of his arse. But...
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/jeremy_corbyn/islington_north/votes
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10426/theresa_may/maidenhead/votes
...you're insane if you think they are "as bad as each other" when it comes to social issues and civil liberties. May is obviously a tonne worse.

I mean, even using your example, he abstained on mass surveillance and that for sure is bad, but it was May's pet project for the last decade and that's much worse.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by captain red dog » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:42 am

Lagamorph wrote:As for civil liberties, let's not forget that Corbyn did not oppose the Investigatory Powers Bill/Snoopers charter, he chose to abstain on it instead and had the rest of the Labour party do the same, ensuring that it went through with a mere 15 votes against. So you certainly can't call Corbyn a champion, or really even a supporter, of civil liberties.

That's just ridiculous. The guy has spent his entire career fighting for civil liberties and has opposed countless terror legislation to much criticism. Criticise him all you like for wanting out of the EU, but his record on civil liberties is pretty concrete.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Hyperion » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:25 am

I'm not sure if Laga's trying to justify his support to us or himself

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:38 am

Support? For who? They're both terrible options for different reasons and I didn't support either of them at the election and don't support either of them now. They'd both want to plow ahead with Brexit no matter what, Corbyn moreso than May who is just capitulating to the Brexiters in her party to cling on to her position.
I'll admit I supported May for the leadership back during the contest, but so did many others here who hate her, simply because she seemed the best option at the time of who was in the running.

They're both as bad as each other, just for differing reasons. Corbyn will cripple the economy, May will cripple rights and liberties, and both will do what the other is doing to lesser extents.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by lex-man » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:55 am

Denster wrote:Nonsense.


You do realise that the government have lost three court cases on their treatment of the NHS. They only haven't been sued more because they changed the law to stop people being able to sue over the NHS.They also removed the law that said people were entitled to health care in this country.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:00 am

May is awful for people on the left, right and centre.

Corbyn is awful for people on the right and centre..

Both awful, Corbyn has the slight edge in that his wing still love him.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:36 am

Moggy wrote:May is awful for people on the left, right and centre.

Corbyn is awful for people on the right and centre..

Both awful, Corbyn has the slight edge in that his wing still love him.

Even that has seemed debatable at times outside of the far left during his leadership.

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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:55 am

Lagamorph wrote:
Moggy wrote:May is awful for people on the left, right and centre.

Corbyn is awful for people on the right and centre..

Both awful, Corbyn has the slight edge in that his wing still love him.

Even that has seemed debatable at times outside of the far left during his leadership.


Has it? A lot of people assumed to be left are actually centrists. The actual left wing of the UK generally love him. Of course there will be exceptions, we are just talking in general, but there aren't many left wingers that don't support him or at least his policies.

I'm not sure that anybody on the right particularly supports May. Cameron quit, there were very few candidates for leader and even after she strawberry floated up the election there are very few challengers. She's basically a caretaker PM, stuck in there as the other Tories are either even weaker or waiting for Brexit to be completed.

Both May and Corbyn are appalling leaders, but Corbyn has a slight edge as there are people that support him, May just has people who think "meh, better than having Boris I guess".

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:41 pm

I'd say there are parts on the right who do like May. Not because of her own policies, but because it's clear she's relatively easy for them to control and manipulate, whereas Cameron tended to stand up to them (see Gay marriage). She's terrified of the Conservative party right and the right wing press, so she'll do whatever she has to in order to appease them.

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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:02 pm

Lagamorph wrote:I'd say there are parts on the right who do like May. Not because of her own policies, but because it's clear she's relatively easy for them to control and manipulate, whereas Cameron tended to stand up to them (see Gay marriage). She's terrified of the Conservative party right and the right wing press, so she'll do whatever she has to in order to appease them.


That doesn't count as liking her. :lol:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by DML » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:24 pm

The bill that went through last night is terrifying. A parliament has just voted to disempower itself. What the actual holy hell?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Hexx » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:30 pm

DML wrote:The bill that went through last night is terrifying. A parliament has just voted to disempower itself. What the actual holy hell?



:dread:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Squinty » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:37 pm

DML wrote:The bill that went through last night is terrifying. A parliament has just voted to disempower itself. What the actual holy hell?


Still got more phases. But it's not looking good.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:02 pm

DML wrote:The bill that went through last night is terrifying. A parliament has just voted to disempower itself. What the actual holy hell?


When they said “taking back control” they meant a return to the days when we were ruled over by a monarch. The Queen is too old and Charles can’t be trusted so the PM is willing to make the sacrifice and take control.

It’s what we voted for, if you don’t like it then you CAN LEAVE.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by DML » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:07 pm

Basically this is what happened.

Leave won.

Tory party then by its own want asks for a mandate to do Brexit.

The electorate doesn't give them that mandate, showing some hesistation on the Tories in general (which should have been a slam dunk if they were...you know...competent)

The Tory party props up their party with some racists to give them a majority.

Pushes through a mandate.

None of that is anything to do with Leave. It is all to do with propping up this lame duck government.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Garth » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:09 pm

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:10 pm

DML wrote:Basically this is what happened.

Leave won.

Tory party then by its own want asks for a mandate to do Brexit.

The electorate doesn't give them that mandate, showing some hesistation on the Tories in general (which should have been a slam dunk if they were...you know...competent)

The Tory party props up their party with some racists to give them a majority.

Pushes through a mandate.

None of that is anything to do with Leave. It is all to do with propping up this lame duck government.


Leave means Leave! We have taken back control and will not allow the EU dictatorship to tell us what to do anymore.

They need us more than we need them and so we will accept a lower standard of living in return for getting our blue passports back.

Henry VIII MADE THIS COUNTRY GREAT. It is time we took his powers back so that we CAN TAKE BACK CONTROL.

Stop being a Remoaner and embrace the beautiful direction this country is heading in. Freedom and a knighthood or peerage for that hero freedom fighter and all round man of the people Nigel Farage!

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by DML » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:13 pm

I just struggle to see why people can't grasp why this isn't like a normal election.

You are talking about thousands of laws being undone, and something that has never been done before. There's multiple ways to do that, to just scream WILL OF THE PEOPLE will absolutely meaningless. There are good and bad ways to achieve things.

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