The Politics Thread 3.0

[Eighthours]

The sins of the Tories do not wash away the sins of Labour.

I agree.

But Labour haven't committed a sin. It wasn't in the manifesto and they don't have the power to implement the policy anyway.

But they were SEEKING the power, using a false impression to try to gain it.

[Memento Mori]

I don't know how you can argue that Labour weren't lying at worst or being misleading at best.

[Eighthours]

Btw, that Sharon Hodgson tweet got 125 retweets at the time. She has 21.5k followers.

125?

125 retweets?

Nice deflection.

[Moggy]

The sins of the Tories do not wash away the sins of Labour.

I agree.

But Labour haven't committed a sin. It wasn't in the manifesto and they don't have the power to implement the policy anyway.

But they were SEEKING the power, using a false impression to try to gain it.

But the Tories GOT the power, using a false impression to gain it.

Labour/Corbyn do not appear to have lied, individual Labour members/campaigners/MPs may have but the fact remains that it was not in their manifesto.

They also did not win the election and so it is ridiculous to try and score political points over a party that didn't promise a policy that they cannot implement anyway.

I get you dislike/hate Labour, but it is astonishing that you seem to care more about something Labour didn't commit to, rather than things that the Tories did commit to.

[Moggy]

Btw, that Sharon Hodgson tweet got 125 retweets at the time. She has 21.5k followers.

125?

125 retweets?

Nice deflection.

It wasn't a deflection. I answered you and then posted that separately.

125 retweets from 21.5k followers hardly seems like a "policy" that stirred the masses to vote for a policy that was never a manifesto commitment.

[Preezy]

Please don't tell me that we're using retweets to indicate the popularity of something. This isn't the Daily Fail.

[Eighthours]

Please don't tell me that we're using retweets to indicate the popularity of something. This isn't the Daily Fail.

Moggy's posts at the moment are the Hourly Fail.

[Eighthours]

The sins of the Tories do not wash away the sins of Labour.

I agree.

But Labour haven't committed a sin. It wasn't in the manifesto and they don't have the power to implement the policy anyway.

But they were SEEKING the power, using a false impression to try to gain it.

But the Tories GOT the power, using a false impression to gain it.

Labour/Corbyn do not appear to have lied, individual Labour members/campaigners/MPs may have but the fact remains that it was not in their manifesto.

They also did not win the election and so it is ridiculous to try and score political points over a party that didn't promise a policy that they cannot implement anyway.

I get you dislike/hate Labour, but it is astonishing that you seem to care more about something Labour didn't commit to, rather than things that the Tories did commit to.

Complaining about people who lie to the electorate isn't political points scoring. What is, though, is trying to deflect from Labour's travails by saying 'But... but they weren't elected and the bad Tories did it too'.

What are these Tory lies you keep referring to, btw? I'd be happy to condemn them too. Equal opportunities for naughty parties.

[Moggy]

I linked you to the entire manifesto of the Tory party. How many of those actual promises are they keeping? They backed away from some of them (the "dementia" tax) before the election.

Nice that Toryboy is so excited about counting retweets that he thinks my posts are the "hourly fail". Keep on bitching about a non-manifesto policy that the losing party might have sort of made.

[That]

I think it was a bit misleading, perhaps not entirely deliberately -- Labour have poor message discipline at the best of times, and it doesn't help that the shadow cabinet is entirely made up of second-tier MPs who appear to be a little bit 'slow.'

What's frustrating about this story though is that - as Moggy alludes to - a U-turn on a non-manifesto goal of a party that didn't attain power has obviously been artificially inflated to be the biggest political news this cycle, above actual government failures that will actually impact all of us. It's part of a larger campaign of scraping the barrel trying to find anything that might discredit Labour in the eyes of young people. Well, the joke's on them -- young people don't even read the news!

[Eighthours]

Toryboy I know I've lost this argument but can't bring myself to say it.

I've only been playing, Moggy, so no need for that. You usually do well in these debates, don't go all Corbynista on me by resorting to abuse. One loss isn't the end of the world, chap.

[Tineash]

It's wonderful having a priggish concern-troll for mod, really it is.

[Eighthours]

I linked you to the entire manifesto of the Tory party. How many of those actual promises are they keeping? They backed away from some of them (the "dementia" tax) before the election.

Might that be because it was dubbed the dementia tax? It's an interesting question - should a party be obligated to keep policies that have clearly gone down very badly if they're in their manifesto? If they had kept this one, you'd be bitching about how they were too uncaring to think again.

Bottom line is, the Tories will never pass the Kobayashi Moggy test.

Are there any particular negative U-turns you want me to condemn?

[Moggy]

Toryboy I know I've lost this argument but can't bring myself to say it.

I've only been playing, Moggy, so no need for that. You usually do well in these debates, don't go all Corbynista on me by resorting to abuse. One loss isn't the end of the world, chap.

Moggy's posts at the moment are the Hourly Fail.

If you post something like that, don't act high and mighty if somebody responds in the same way.

I'm not sure how I have lost. I don't like Corbyn and am perfectly happy to send abuse his way if it is fair abuse. As it stands the right wing Tory supporting press appear to be up in arms over a few comments made by Labour MPs/members. Comments that did not form part of the Party election manifesto. Comments that were not presented as proper policy but more as a "we'd like to do this". Comments that they have no ability to honour at the moment because they are not in power.

You accused me of deflection earlier, to my mind this whole story is a massive deflection away from the way the Tories have distanced themselves from pretty much their entire manifesto.

Where is the "dementia tax"?
Where is the fox hunting vote?
Where are the school breakfasts?
Why did they commit to keeping free TV licences for pensioners but have now said it might be scrapped in 2020?
Where is the guarantee to the pensions triple lock?
Where are the grammar schools?

That's just off of the top of my head.

But no, let's concentrate on non-commitments that were made by the party that isn't in power.

[Moggy]

I linked you to the entire manifesto of the Tory party. How many of those actual promises are they keeping? They backed away from some of them (the "dementia" tax) before the election.

Might that be because it was dubbed the dementia tax? It's an interesting question - should a party be obligated to keep policies that have clearly gone down very badly if they're in their manifesto? If they had kept this one, you'd be bitching about how they were too uncaring to think again.

Bottom line is, the Tories will never pass the Kobayashi Moggy test.

Are there any particular negative U-turns you want me to condemn?

Of course I would argue against things like the dementia tax. So? It was an actual commitment made in a manifesto that they have completely dropped.

You seem very concerned about comments made that were not in a manifesto, but you think that things that were actually IN a manifesto are ok to be dropped if some of the media give it a nasty sounding name?

[Eighthours]

But no, let's concentrate on non-commitments that were made by the party that isn't in power.

It can be argued that if there hadn't been so much 'noooooo' from Labour supporters, this would all have ended immediately.

Where is the "dementia tax"?
Where is the fox hunting vote?
Where are the school breakfasts?
Why did they commit to keeping free TV licences for pensioners but have now said it might be scrapped in 2020?
Where is the guarantee to the pensions triple lock?
Where are the grammar schools?

That's just off of the top of my head.

Aren't these all policies that you don't like, save for the pensions triple lock and the free TV licences (and on the former, hadn't they switched to a 'double lock' in the manifesto?)? I agree that a party should honour its manifesto commitments but you'd be complaining here if they did. Aside from the TV Licences and the triple lock, the policies you've listed went down very badly... so what's wrong with thinking again?

What I would regard as a lie would be something like promising 10,000 more police officers and not delivering. Or promising an amount for the NHS that never gets paid. Similarly, one of the busted deficit promises or the silly migration target which will never be reached. Those are proper gooseberry fool and I would say lies as the Tories likely didn't think they could be achieved, therefore trying to mislead the electorate in order to get votes.

But saying there will be a new foxhunting vote and then cancelling it due to the Parliamentary arithmetic, or thinking again about a gooseberry fool policy that got widely slated, just isn't the same thing in my opinion. Maybe I'd think differently if I lived in the country and voted Tory because I wanted to kill some foxes, but c'est la vie.

[Moggy]

You have completely missed my point.

It doesn't matter if I like the policies, they are actual manifesto commitments that are not being honoured.

It doesn't matter how horrified I would be by them if they were brought in, in the context of this conversation it goes:

Labour: Some Labour people said something about existing student loans. It didn't go in the manifesto. Labour didn't win so couldn't implement anything anyway.

Conservative: Made actual pledges in a manifesto. Are the party in power after the election. Have dropped almost all of their pledges.

Can you not see why I think it is ridiculous to concentrate on Labour in this scenario?

[BID0]

The only interview I saw with Corbyn (I think it was the NME one) that mentioned looking back a tuition fees for those already with debt was it would be looked at but it's unlikely much if anything could be done for those people. It was pretty clear that it was looking forwards for those that haven't took on any tuition debt yet.

Plus the fact it wasn't written in the manifesto is also a big clue. He regularly said "read the manifesto" which he was also carrying around with him and held up above his head during interviews, debates and rallies.

It literally couldn't be clearer

[Herdanos]

What are these Tory lies you keep referring to, btw? I'd be happy to condemn them too. Equal opportunities for naughty parties.

(...)

the policies you've listed went down very badly... so what's wrong with thinking again?

Classic Conservative U- turn.

Moggy's posts at the moment are the Hourly Fail.

(...)

I've only been playing, Moggy, so no need for that. You usually do well in these debates, don't go all Corbynista on me by resorting to abuse.

Classic Conservative double standards.
Classic Conservative abuse of power.

You always can tell a Tory.

Why bother even debating? Moggy has already said he's no fan of Corbyn but is pointing out the Tory / Tory media hypocrisy of focusing to the point of absurdity on this issue - which, as has already been pointed out, hardly matters anyway as Labour lost the election. But if you're not even prepared to deviate from the party whip to properly engage in a debate, don't play the 'I'm an Emeritus so behave" card.

[DML]

The problem with suggesting the Tories haven't backtracked on lies is that they've told more lies than any political party in modern history.

Every major party should be held to account, but none of them are likely to overtake in the pure filthy lie stakes.