The Politics Thread 3.0

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Errkal
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Errkal » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:29 pm

Lagamorph wrote:I wonder if the SNP will actually have answers for things like economic policy,

Nope
Lagamorph wrote: how to handle the Scottish deficit,

Nope

Lagamorph wrote:what they'll do for currency,

Nope

Lagamorph wrote:etc this time around.


After last time they really should as it became very very very clear towards the end of the campaign they had no clue what they would actually do, had they voted Leave it would be like the Brexit vote, lots of "Yeah it will be fine" which people behind the scenes run around in a panic not quite sure what to do.

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Hexx
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Hexx » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:30 pm

It'll complete strawberry float May's "negotiations" as well - she'd have to be arguing 2 scenarios - one with Scotland and one without..

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Photek » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:31 pm

Hexx wrote:It'll complete strawberry float May's "negotiations" as well - she'd have to be arguing 2 scenarios - one with Scotland and one without..

Possibly why Sturgeon has announced this. :shifty:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:50 pm

Photek wrote:
Lotus wrote:Wow, these once-in-a-lifetime referendums sure come round quickly. I knew some parts of Scotland had poor life expectancy, but I didn't think it was that bad.

As for the vote, seems crazy to call for it when Brexit will be going on and the full outcome of that won't be clear. In a way it would be a shame to see this island further divided, but at the same time all you ever hear from the Scots is how hard done by they are and how the big bad English are holding them down, so it would be good to see them go it alone and see how they get on. God help us is they vote no to independence though; more calls for referendums until the SNP get what they want, more complaining, more hypocrisy.

The English HAVE held them down though, two thirds of scottish people voted to remain, they were warned if they voted for independence in the referendum they might have to leave the EU. That's now going to happen anyway. The facts for independence have changed, I don't see the problem with them wanting to decide their own fate. They also say they have reason to believe that they may be in the EU if they go independent as well.


I agree. The Scottish people were told last time that they could only be in the EU if they voted to remain in the UK. Now their only chance of remaining in the EU is to leave the UK. It's fair enough to ask them again now that the terms have changed so drastically.

This idea that re-running referendums is an affront to democracy is very bizarre. If a referendum is "the will of the people" then there should be no issue with asking the people again.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:51 pm

Photek wrote:
Hexx wrote:It'll complete strawberry float May's "negotiations" as well - she'd have to be arguing 2 scenarios - one with Scotland and one without..

Possibly why Sturgeon has announced this. :shifty:


May's negotiations appear to consist of "give us everything we want or we will walk away with nothing!" so I am not sure this will bugger up her diplomacy too much. ;)

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by KK » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:14 pm

The SNP was always going to campaign for a second referendum, irrespective of Brexit. Farage was also talking about a second EU referendum mere hours before Leave won because he thought they were going to lose.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lotus » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:19 pm

I'm not talking about Brexit. Before the idea of an EU referendum was even mentioned, there was still plenty of complaining about them being hard done by. All Brexit has done is ramp it up even more. If there's enough of a will amongst the population for another referendum, fine, but I'm not convinced there is. And given the SNP said before it was once-in-a-lifetime (or was it generation?) this just proves that a) that was bullshit and b) they'll keep pushing for it over and over until they get the result they want, regardless of whether it's in the interest of the Scottish people or not.

The tunnel vision of the SNP - which seems to be independence whatever the cost - is going to put Scotland in a difficult position. It will be the biggest decision the country's faced in hundreds of years, and yet both outcomes will be unclear. If the SNP really had Scotland's best interests at heart, surely they would wait to know exactly what the full implications of both outcomes would be; not risk confusion and uncertainty amonst the voting public (although perhaps they're banking on that to get the result they want).

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:25 pm

Lotus wrote:And given the SNP said before it was once-in-a-lifetime (or was it generation?) this just proves that a) that was bullshit and b) they'll keep pushing for it over and over until they get the result they want, regardless of whether it's in the interest of the Scottish people or not


I'd say that the decision of England and Wales to leave the EU and drag Scotland along with them is a decision of such magnitude that it is ok for the SNP to ignore their previous claim that the Scottish referendum was once in a lifetime/generation. Brexit has completely changed the outlook for the future (whether you think that is positive or negative) and completely changes a lot of the arguments made in the Scottish referendum.

If Brexit hadn't have happened, then the SNP wouldn't be calling for another referendum now as they would have no real justification. That's not to say they wouldn't ever have done so again, but they would have waited at least 10 years imo.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Cheeky Devlin » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:27 pm

What Moggy said.

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:31 pm

Hasn't general support from the Scottish public for another Independence referendum, and independence in general, actually gone down since the EU referendum?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:32 pm

Lagamorph wrote:Hasn't general support from the Scottish public for another Independence referendum, and independence in general, actually gone down since the EU referendum?


Link?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:38 pm

It's just something I'm sure I've heard on TV news in the past but can't recall specific instances, hence asking it as a question rather than stating it as a fact.


EDIT - There's this from the Guardian, today, suggesting a majority of Scots are against a second referendum, though it looks to be fairly in line with the results of the last referendum
BMG Research interviewed 1,009 Scots aged 16 and over between 23 February and 27 February.
It found that 41% supported independence, 44% opposed it, while 13% were unsure and 2% would not say.

When “don’t knows” were ruled out, the results were 52% to 48% against independence.

Asked if there should be another independence vote before Brexit, 49% said no, 39% agreed and the remainder said they were unsure.

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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:44 pm

Lagamorph wrote:
the results were 52% to 48% against independence.


Well that closes that question then. Hard Scottish UK membership, NOW!

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Peter Crisp » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:48 pm

A problem they may face is that last time they said the vote was a once in a lifetime opportunity and now they've gone back on that and it looks like the losing side are just refusing to accept the result which may impact negatively on the chances of the leave side.
Who's to say they won't just call for a third or fourth referendum if they lose again?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by bear » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:49 pm




That went well.


I'm not sure how this referendum will go. The Yes campaign got a much higher vote than people expected last time around even if they ended up losing.

The issue of EU membership has now moved from something the No side used as a reason to stay part of the UK to something the Yes side can use as a reason to leave. Even if they can't promise that Scotland will stay in the EU then the promise of rejoining inside ten or fifteen years is a lot better than "we're never going back because immigants, bendy bananas,Empire 2.0, UKIP might get a few MPs, etc".

At the very least Sturgeon has upped the pressure on May to try and deliver a good deal for Scotland.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Rex Kramer » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:53 pm

She'll need nothing beyond - 'Look what the English are going to do to our country'. That'll get at least 65% of the vote.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:54 pm

Peter Crisp wrote:A problem they may face is that last time they said the vote was a once in a lifetime opportunity and now they've gone back on that and it looks like the losing side are just refusing to accept the result which may impact negatively on the chances of the leave side.
Who's to say they won't just call for a third or fourth referendum if they lose again?


Brexit has given them the all the excuse that they need for another referendum. It is a massive massive change in the way the country is run and rips to shreds a lot of the arguments that unionists used to persuade Scottish people to stay.

A third or fourth referendum would only happen after at least a decade or if something major happened in British politics.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Peter Crisp » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:56 pm

Moggy wrote:
Peter Crisp wrote:A problem they may face is that last time they said the vote was a once in a lifetime opportunity and now they've gone back on that and it looks like the losing side are just refusing to accept the result which may impact negatively on the chances of the leave side.
Who's to say they won't just call for a third or fourth referendum if they lose again?


Brexit has given them the all the excuse that they need for another referendum. It is a massive massive change in the way the country is run and rips to shreds a lot of the arguments that unionists used to persuade Scottish people to stay.

A third or fourth referendum would only happen after at least a decade or if something major happened in British politics.


Something insane like the Lib Dems being voted in?

jiggles wrote:Nobody with a VR headset is going to be using it regularly this time next year, let alone in 4 years time.


Posted 16th March 2016. Let's see.
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:00 pm

Peter Crisp wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Peter Crisp wrote:A problem they may face is that last time they said the vote was a once in a lifetime opportunity and now they've gone back on that and it looks like the losing side are just refusing to accept the result which may impact negatively on the chances of the leave side.
Who's to say they won't just call for a third or fourth referendum if they lose again?


Brexit has given them the all the excuse that they need for another referendum. It is a massive massive change in the way the country is run and rips to shreds a lot of the arguments that unionists used to persuade Scottish people to stay.

A third or fourth referendum would only happen after at least a decade or if something major happened in British politics.


Something insane like the Lib Dems being voted in?


Well obviously not, if anything that would ease the calls for Scottish independence – one thing Scottish people hate is the Tory party, having a different and left leaning government would make them more likely to want to be part of the UK.

I am not sure there are many major things that the Scottish people would want/not want that the rest of the UK could try and force them to accept.

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Errkal
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Errkal » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:01 pm

Moggy wrote:
Peter Crisp wrote:A problem they may face is that last time they said the vote was a once in a lifetime opportunity and now they've gone back on that and it looks like the losing side are just refusing to accept the result which may impact negatively on the chances of the leave side.
Who's to say they won't just call for a third or fourth referendum if they lose again?


Brexit has given them the all the excuse that they need for another referendum. It is a massive massive change in the way the country is run and rips to shreds a lot of the arguments that unionists used to persuade Scottish people to stay.

A third or fourth referendum would only happen after at least a decade or if something major happened in British politics.


Yeah a second one makes sense after such a major change especially as continued EU membership was such a big part of the reason to vote remain.

Whether leaving or not is the right choice is a whole other thing and hopefully the "how they survive" side will actually be answered this time around.


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