The Politics Thread 3.0

[Glowy69]

:lol:

Laugh it up, you know it's true.

From your standpoint I'm sure it is.

It's not my standpoint, it's the way it is. Theresa May went from supporting Remain to being a hard Brexit supporter at the slightest sniff of power and has only been trying to attract the UKIP supporters ever since.

I'm not saying that the Conservatives are UKIP, but they are definitely heading further right in order to attract the UKIP voters.

Havent most Ukip voters voted conservative? So what moggy says is technically true?

[KK]

I think our papers have bigger issues than the French elections, they're hemorrhaging readers on a daily basis...

Daily Mail

December 2016: 1,491,264
March 2017: 1,442,924 (64,136 of those bulk sales - i.e. to hotels, airports etc.)

Daily Express

December 2016: 391,626
March 2017: 386,720

Daily Star

December 2016: 440,471
March 2017: 436,963

The Sun

December 2016: 1,611,464 (95,000 bulks)
March 2017: 1,602,320

Guardian

December 2016: 161,191
March 2017: 153,431

Whenever I'm in the supermarket or WHSmith I never see anyone under the age of about 60 buying the Express or Mail. Not being funny but they're probably, you know, popping their clogs.

[Glowy69]

Yep. Most people access their information other ways now? I still see OAP's standing outside the paper shop waiting for it to open.

[Blue Eyes]

I don't see a viable way for educated, moderate people to 'engage' with people who vote Brexit, Trump, Le Pen (etc.) without legitimising their points of view. We can't make concessions to fascism and anti-intellectualism without sending the message that those ideologies have something going for them.

A counter to that would be the girl (can't remember her name, sorry) who left the Westboro Baptist Church - some of the biggest fascists going - off the back of people engaging her without throwing insults at her on social media. There's a video of her talking about it on Youtube somewhere and it does make me think that some people at least can at least be talked round. We know plenty of people voted for Trump in spite of his more fascist leanings, as they felt he represented them more than Clinton did in other political areas, so it's possible. Obviously some people are just racist banana splits who just need battering over the head. Horses for courses innit?

[captain red dog]

Yep, that's why you are seeing concerted efforts by traditional media to brand new media as fake news and attempts to crack down on google and Facebook.

Ironic really to see that Facebook had to take out ads today in newspapers warning about fake news.

[Denster]

I was laughing at the ' look of the state of the Tory party' comment. At a point when we're predicted to have a very successful GE and possibly a landslide.

[Moggy]

I was laughing at the ' look of the state of the Tory party' comment. At a point when we're predicted to have a very successful GE and possibly a landslide.

Come on Denster, you know that I agree the Tories are going to easily win this election. "The state of the Tory party" doesn't mean I think they will lose, it means they are terrible.

I could say "the state of the Transformers movies" because they are gooseberry fool, not because they are not big hits.

[Denster]

As for the Conservstives becoming more right wing - maybe so but delivering brexit is what is winning the ukip voters over. First and foremost.

[Denster]

I was laughing at the ' look of the state of the Tory party' comment. At a point when we're predicted to have a very successful GE and possibly a landslide.

Come on Denster, you know that I agree the Tories are going to easily win this election. "The state of the Tory party" doesn't mean I think they will lose, it means they are terrible.

I could say "the state of the Transformers movies" because they are gooseberry fool, not because they are not big hits.

Hence my response - from your standpoint.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

The interesting thing about how the French elections work is that the overall winner was the guy that only 24.01% originally wanted.

Also 5 million people who voted in the first round didn't bother to vote the second time, 4 million spoiled their votes and 12 million abstained.

That's pretty amazing really, it does for me show that the country as a whole is divided however what country isn't? Unless you live in Russia where every loves putin

In the uk election 2015 the tories got only 2 million more votes than labour but we are lead to believe that they destroyed labour. Obviously they didn't when we look at commons seats but that's because that's our electoral system. No system is perfect.

[Jamo3103]

Dismissing all those who have voted for Brexit, Trump, Le Pen etc. as being xenophobic, fascist and outright just stupid is precisely the kind of arrogance which has led to the huge disconnect between voters and politicians (and subsequently to people voting this way in the first place!). Of course you will have a group of people who do meet those stereotypes but that does not represent everyone, is everybody with left wing views a Marxist? Of course not.

There are huge levels of distrust based on the consistent overpromising and under delivering under both the previous Conservative and Labour governments. If you don't engage with these people and find out precisely why they have voted the way they do then you will never win their vote back around. Sure you'll get a few "because Muslims" and the like but there are plenty of people who may have perfectly legitimate reasons which you haven't even comprehended because they exist outside your own little bubble, persistently ignoring these people and not addressing their issues is exactly why Politics is in such a shitty state worldwide.

[Moggy]

I was laughing at the ' look of the state of the Tory party' comment. At a point when we're predicted to have a very successful GE and possibly a landslide.

Come on Denster, you know that I agree the Tories are going to easily win this election. "The state of the Tory party" doesn't mean I think they will lose, it means they are terrible.

I could say "the state of the Transformers movies" because they are gooseberry fool, not because they are not big hits.

Hence my response - from your standpoint.

Yes from my standpoint the Tory party is a state because they are moving further right into UKIP territory.

From your standpoint they are wonderful and can do no wrong whatsoever.

It's like I said before, you are basically a political fanboy, you've chosen a side and no matter what they do you will always stick to that side.

Does it not worry you at all how quickly the senior Tories went from Remain to hard Brexit?

[Garth]

Yep, that's why you are seeing concerted efforts by traditional media to brand new media as fake news and attempts to crack down on google and Facebook.

Ironic really to see that Facebook had to take out ads today in newspapers warning about fake news.

There has been an awful lot of fake news spread on Facebook though. There are people actively creating fake news websites and linking to articles for the lulz and/or political purposes, and it can be pretty damaging considering how gullible people can be. For example, there were people believing that Hillary Clinton was involved with a paedophile ring at a pizza restaurant because of completely fake news, which inspired gunmen to go in threatening innocent staff and opening fire. So I wouldn't say it's an effort by traditional media to brand new media as fake news, it's a serious real-world issue that should be dealt with.

[Jamo3103]

I was laughing at the ' look of the state of the Tory party' comment. At a point when we're predicted to have a very successful GE and possibly a landslide.

Come on Denster, you know that I agree the Tories are going to easily win this election. "The state of the Tory party" doesn't mean I think they will lose, it means they are terrible.

I could say "the state of the Transformers movies" because they are gooseberry fool, not because they are not big hits.

Hence my response - from your standpoint.

Yes from my standpoint the Tory party is a state because they are moving further right into UKIP territory.

From your standpoint they are wonderful and can do no wrong whatsoever.

It's like I said before, you are basically a political fanboy, you've chosen a side and no matter what they do you will always stick to that side.

Does it not worry you at all how quickly the senior Tories went from Remain to hard Brexit?

Your point about him being a political fanboy may be valid, I haven't read enough of his judgements to agree or disagree on that point. I do however think political 'fanboyism' is a huge issue on all sides. How many people actually read a manifesto and listen to what politicians actually say (as opposed to just sound bites and newspaper headlines?)

I lost count during the last election of the amount of people I know who were ranting and raving on social media about their Political view, yet most of them couldn't validate their opinions beyond "My parents told me never to vote conservatives because Thatcher did this, that or the other" or "I won't vote Labour because Gordon Brown sold all the gold on the cheap". Most of them were still in nappy's when Thatcher was in charge and their judgement on the Labour party was based on something ripped straight from a tabloid headline. Huge amounts of people seem to just have a fixed mindset when it comes to their political views and appear to have very little understanding of the actual politics of their party of choice.

As Garth points out above, the amount of actual 'fake news' being spread only adds fuel to the fire.

[Moggy]

I was laughing at the ' look of the state of the Tory party' comment. At a point when we're predicted to have a very successful GE and possibly a landslide.

Come on Denster, you know that I agree the Tories are going to easily win this election. "The state of the Tory party" doesn't mean I think they will lose, it means they are terrible.

I could say "the state of the Transformers movies" because they are gooseberry fool, not because they are not big hits.

Hence my response - from your standpoint.

Yes from my standpoint the Tory party is a state because they are moving further right into UKIP territory.

From your standpoint they are wonderful and can do no wrong whatsoever.

It's like I said before, you are basically a political fanboy, you've chosen a side and no matter what they do you will always stick to that side.

Does it not worry you at all how quickly the senior Tories went from Remain to hard Brexit?

Your point about him being a political fanboy may be valid, I haven't read enough of his judgements to agree or disagree on that point. I do however think political 'fanboyism' is a huge issue on all sides. How many people actually read a manifesto and listen to what politicians actually say (as opposed to just sound bites?

I lost count during the last election of the amount of people I know who were ranting and raving on social media about their Political view, yet most of them couldn't validate their opinions beyond "My parents told me never to vote conservatives because Thatcher did this, that or the other" or "I won't vote Labour because Gordon Brown sold all the gold on the cheap". Most of them were still in nappy's when Thatcher was in charge and their judgement on the Labour party was based on something ripped straight from a tabloid headline. Huge amounts of people seem to just have a fixed mindset when it comes to their political views and appear to have very little understanding of the actual politics of their party of choice.

Absolutely, Denster is no different to anybody else that sticks by one party no matter what.

Generations of people only vote Labour based on generation old grievances or because their father did. It's sad, people being so tribal to one party no matter what is crazy.

Personally I am not a fan of any one party. Usually I vote Lib Dem based on a mix of a dislike of Labour/Tory and liking some of their policies. Last time I voted Labour due to Clegg's record in government. This time I am torn between going back to the Lib Dems (due to Brexit) or sticking with the Labour MP that I have (because she is decent, even if I dislike Corbyn). I'm tempted by the Greens as well, but have reservations on just how practical their policies are.

[That]

I don't see a viable way for educated, moderate people to 'engage' with people who vote Brexit, Trump, Le Pen (etc.) without legitimising their points of view. We can't make concessions to fascism and anti-intellectualism without sending the message that those ideologies have something going for them.

The problem with this lack of engagement is that it is driving people to vote for extremes because there appears to be no other choice on the ballot to represent their views or concerns.

The fact that 35% of French people voted for the FN should be an absolutely massive wakeup call that there is something seriously wrong in French society that needs fixing and not ignoring.

Sure, fine! But which of their 'views and concerns' should mainstream moderates be targeting? Their views are often simply wrong - be it morally ("bring back the death penalty!") or factually ("the immigrants are taking our jobs!") - and pandering to them convinces them that they were right all along. If you disagree with this that's cool, but could you outline the issues where you feel meaningful engagement could actually happen?

I don't see a viable way for educated, moderate people to 'engage' with people who vote Brexit, Trump, Le Pen (etc.) without legitimising their points of view. We can't make concessions to fascism and anti-intellectualism without sending the message that those ideologies have something going for them.

A counter to that would be the girl (can't remember her name, sorry) who left the Westboro Baptist Church - some of the biggest fascists going - off the back of people engaging her without throwing insults at her on social media. There's a video of her talking about it on Youtube somewhere and it does make me think that some people at least can at least be talked round. We know plenty of people voted for Trump in spite of his more fascist leanings, as they felt he represented them more than Clinton did in other political areas, so it's possible. Obviously some people are just racist banana splits who just need battering over the head. Horses for courses innit?

Definitely, I agree you should where possible debate with these people calmly. But it should be "I'm afraid you're wrong, the immigrants aren't taking your jobs" rather than "Well, I guess we can meet half-way and tighten the rules a little...?".

[Preezy]

Dismissing all those who have voted for Brexit, Trump, Le Pen etc. as being xenophobic, fascist and outright just stupid is precisely the kind of arrogance which has led to the huge disconnect between voters and politicians (and subsequently to people voting this way in the first place!). Of course you will have a group of people who do meet those stereotypes but that does not represent everyone, is everybody with left wing views a Marxist? Of course not.

There are huge levels of distrust based on the consistent overpromising and under delivering under both the previous Conservative and Labour governments. If you don't engage with these people and find out precisely why they have voted the way they do then you will never win their vote back around. Sure you'll get a few "because Muslims" and the like but there are plenty of people who may have perfectly legitimate reasons which you haven't even comprehended because they exist outside your own little bubble, persistently ignoring these people and not addressing their issues is exactly why Politics is in such a shitty state worldwide.

This. People don't engage with people that they disagree with anymore. Everyone seems to prefer their own echo-chambers. The left labels the right as facist and racist, the right labels the left as socialist PC snowflakes. These views just get endless amounts of concrete poured on top of them by each side only paying attention to its own media, so the views become more and more entrenched and some of the concrete has rebar in it which makes it doubly strong, although be careful not to get impaled on a piece of it because it really hurts.

What I'm trying to say is that both sides need to listen to each other and engage more rather than just play identity politics, and also that concrete rebar is a potential health hazard if you're walking on wasteground and there's a rusty spike of it sticking out the ground.

[OrangeRKN]

"the immigrants are taking our jobs!" may be factually incorrect when you look at the statistics, but that belief is a reaction to the real issue of people not having jobs, or not having a job that sufficiently supports them. Solve the latter and the former will largely disappear.

Engagement should be on two levels - redirecting people's anger away from scapegoats towards the actual issues, and solving those underlying issues.

One difficulty is that telling someone they are wrong is rarely going to change their mind. Just throwing out facts and figures showing that immigrants aren't taking people's jobs is counter-productive in that it just makes people less receptive to facts and figures (and hence so-called experts). I think when people talk about the need for more engagement with the disenfranchised, they mean that we need to stop alienating them in this way.

[Denster]

I'm actually not a Tory fanboy. I don't vote Tory as a generation thing or because my dad did. My dad was working class and labour through and through. He's probably still turning in his grave at my political views. And no it didn't worry me how many jumped on the brexit bandwagon because it's what was bound to happen.

[Knoyleo]

I'm actually not a Tory fanboy.

Didn't you refer to the government as "us" recently?