The Politics Thread 3.0

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Denster
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Mon May 08, 2017 12:16 pm

Does that make me a fanboy?

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Errkal
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Errkal » Mon May 08, 2017 12:18 pm

You do also seem to love everything they come out with, and jump to their defense when anything is said, so yeah I would say you are a fanboy.

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Denster
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Mon May 08, 2017 12:27 pm

Ok possibly. But I don't think I jump to their defence. I just think there needs to be more than one opinion in these threads other than the Tories are pure evil tripe that's spouted with virtual impunity.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by TigaSefi » Mon May 08, 2017 12:41 pm

Preezy wrote:
Jamo3103 wrote:
Dismissing all those who have voted for Brexit, Trump, Le Pen etc. as being xenophobic, fascist and outright just stupid is precisely the kind of arrogance which has led to the huge disconnect between voters and politicians (and subsequently to people voting this way in the first place!). Of course you will have a group of people who do meet those stereotypes but that does not represent everyone, is everybody with left wing views a Marxist? Of course not.

There are huge levels of distrust based on the consistent overpromising and under delivering under both the previous Conservative and Labour governments. If you don't engage with these people and find out precisely why they have voted the way they do then you will never win their vote back around. Sure you'll get a few "because Muslims" and the like but there are plenty of people who may have perfectly legitimate reasons which you haven't even comprehended because they exist outside your own little bubble, persistently ignoring these people and not addressing their issues is exactly why Politics is in such a shitty state worldwide.

This. People don't engage with people that they disagree with anymore. Everyone seems to prefer their own echo-chambers. The left labels the right as facist and racist, the right labels the left as socialist PC snowflakes. These views just get endless amounts of concrete poured on top of them by each side only paying attention to its own media, so the views become more and more entrenched and some of the concrete has rebar in it which makes it doubly strong, although be careful not to get impaled on a piece of it because it really hurts.

What I'm trying to say is that both sides need to listen to each other and engage more rather than just play identity politics, and also that concrete rebar is a potential health hazard if you're walking on wasteground and there's a rusty spike of it sticking out the ground.


You say that but look how the GRcade lefties attack anyone that doesn't fit in with their incredibly narrow viewpoints. Such language ;)

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DML
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by DML » Mon May 08, 2017 12:54 pm

Denster wrote:Ok possibly. But I don't think I jump to their defence. I just think there needs to be more than one opinion in these threads other than the Tories are pure evil tripe that's spouted with virtual impunity.


But maybe if that opinion doesn't exist, then maybe people just don't hold that opinion? After all, every poll of people below 40 years old has Labour (and remember, not a Labour voter here) way way out in front despite these being their darkest days.

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon May 08, 2017 12:54 pm

Denster wrote:Ok possibly. But I don't think I jump to their defence. I just think there needs to be more than one opinion in these threads other than the Tories are pure evil tripe that's spouted with virtual impunity.


Absolutely, other opinions should be viewed.

The trouble is the more right wing members don't really post their views. I call you a fanboy because you post about your support for the Tories, but you very rarely expand on why you support them, or what policies you like.

Grumpy David is another one, he'll post a news article or a brief opinion and then won't be seen again. He was even cheeky enough the other week to PM me when I answered his post with just a smilie (I later expanded my post), despite him hardly ever answering people's replies.

I get that this forum is massively left leaning which is probably off putting to right wingers, but there's nothing more annoying than people who don't engage in the debate.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon May 08, 2017 12:59 pm

TigaSefi wrote:
Preezy wrote:
Jamo3103 wrote:
Dismissing all those who have voted for Brexit, Trump, Le Pen etc. as being xenophobic, fascist and outright just stupid is precisely the kind of arrogance which has led to the huge disconnect between voters and politicians (and subsequently to people voting this way in the first place!). Of course you will have a group of people who do meet those stereotypes but that does not represent everyone, is everybody with left wing views a Marxist? Of course not.

There are huge levels of distrust based on the consistent overpromising and under delivering under both the previous Conservative and Labour governments. If you don't engage with these people and find out precisely why they have voted the way they do then you will never win their vote back around. Sure you'll get a few "because Muslims" and the like but there are plenty of people who may have perfectly legitimate reasons which you haven't even comprehended because they exist outside your own little bubble, persistently ignoring these people and not addressing their issues is exactly why Politics is in such a shitty state worldwide.

This. People don't engage with people that they disagree with anymore. Everyone seems to prefer their own echo-chambers. The left labels the right as facist and racist, the right labels the left as socialist PC snowflakes. These views just get endless amounts of concrete poured on top of them by each side only paying attention to its own media, so the views become more and more entrenched and some of the concrete has rebar in it which makes it doubly strong, although be careful not to get impaled on a piece of it because it really hurts.

What I'm trying to say is that both sides need to listen to each other and engage more rather than just play identity politics, and also that concrete rebar is a potential health hazard if you're walking on wasteground and there's a rusty spike of it sticking out the ground.


You say that but look how the GRcade lefties attack anyone that doesn't fit in with their incredibly narrow viewpoints. Such language ;)


I'm sure people here can handle bad language. Using words like strawberry float or banana split goes for every thread here, not just the political ones.

It does seem that the right wing forumites can't handle that people reply, debate and argue with them. Debate is usually stifled by a right winger (usually one that's not even part of the discussion) saying that somebody is being picked on or that the lefties won't allow debate as they all reply and gang up.

Which is rubbish, there are more lefties here but nobody gets picked on. Their views and opinions might get picked on or ripped apart but that's kind of the point of debate. If somebody can't handle their views being questioned, then their belief in their own views must be rather shaky.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Jamo3103 » Mon May 08, 2017 1:52 pm

Double Post - Please Delete (It won't let me!) :)

Last edited by Jamo3103 on Mon May 08, 2017 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Jamo3103 » Mon May 08, 2017 1:52 pm

Moggy wrote:Absolutely, Denster is no different to anybody else that sticks by one party no matter what.

Generations of people only vote Labour based on generation old grievances or because their father did. It's sad, people being so tribal to one party no matter what is crazy.

Personally I am not a fan of any one party. Usually I vote Lib Dem based on a mix of a dislike of Labour/Tory and liking some of their policies. Last time I voted Labour due to Clegg's record in government. This time I am torn between going back to the Lib Dems (due to Brexit) or sticking with the Labour MP that I have (because she is decent, even if I dislike Corbyn). I'm tempted by the Greens as well, but have reservations on just how practical their policies are.


Completely agree, people should really try and make their own decision and the party you vote for should be a fluid decision, based on their own policies, leadership etc. Of course one party may more commonly side with your views than another but factors should always be able to change that (As you've said with you changing between Lib Dems/Labour).

Truthfully I struggle to find any one party or leader that resonates with me at present, I need to have a proper read through the manifestos and see who I most closely align with. Similar to you I dislike Corbyn but we have a good Labour MP in my area and locally Labour tend to win by a resounding majority

Preezy wrote:
Jamo3103 wrote:
Dismissing all those who have voted for Brexit, Trump, Le Pen etc. as being xenophobic, fascist and outright just stupid is precisely the kind of arrogance which has led to the huge disconnect between voters and politicians (and subsequently to people voting this way in the first place!). Of course you will have a group of people who do meet those stereotypes but that does not represent everyone, is everybody with left wing views a Marxist? Of course not.

There are huge levels of distrust based on the consistent overpromising and under delivering under both the previous Conservative and Labour governments. If you don't engage with these people and find out precisely why they have voted the way they do then you will never win their vote back around. Sure you'll get a few "because Muslims" and the like but there are plenty of people who may have perfectly legitimate reasons which you haven't even comprehended because they exist outside your own little bubble, persistently ignoring these people and not addressing their issues is exactly why Politics is in such a shitty state worldwide.

This. People don't engage with people that they disagree with anymore. Everyone seems to prefer their own echo-chambers. The left labels the right as facist and racist, the right labels the left as socialist PC snowflakes. These views just get endless amounts of concrete poured on top of them by each side only paying attention to its own media, so the views become more and more entrenched and some of the concrete has rebar in it which makes it doubly strong, although be careful not to get impaled on a piece of it because it really hurts.

What I'm trying to say is that both sides need to listen to each other and engage more rather than just play identity politics, and also that concrete rebar is a potential health hazard if you're walking on wasteground and there's a rusty spike of it sticking out the ground.


Couldn't agree more, ultimately we're voting for what is the best for the future of this country and the people living in it, what should be a balanced debate often turns into a barrage of abuse. Unfortunately that is often the example the leaders seem to set, I'm all for debate about issues but even they seem to resort to personal attacks or bringing up the distant past.

OrangeRakoon wrote:"the immigrants are taking our jobs!" may be factually incorrect when you look at the statistics, but that belief is a reaction to the real issue of people not having jobs, or not having a job that sufficiently supports them. Solve the latter and the former will largely disappear.

Engagement should be on two levels - redirecting people's anger away from scapegoats towards the actual issues, and solving those underlying issues.

One difficulty is that telling someone they are wrong is rarely going to change their mind. Just throwing out facts and figures showing that immigrants aren't taking people's jobs is counter-productive in that it just makes people less receptive to facts and figures (and hence so-called experts). I think when people talk about the need for more engagement with the disenfranchised, they mean that we need to stop alienating them in this way.


'The Immigrants taking our jobs' argument is one which has often infuriated me. I used to work in Hospitality management, an industry fairly well known for employing a high amount of immigrants, particularly from Eastern Europe. We had a high turnover of staff and jobs were therefore coming up on an almost weekly basis, most typically for cleaners but also for waiting staff. Maybe not the most highly paying or sought after jobs, but a job nonetheless. The hotel I worked for was based in an area renowned for having one of highest unemployment rates in the region, a large proportion of these unemployed were British. However despite this when we advertised a jobs we scarcely received any English applicants.

Technically the immigrants were taking their jobs but partly because they weren't applying for them. Whether that reason was that they couldn't be arsed, or simply didn't know how to find about the jobs is something I don't know and wouldn't like to speculate on.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by DML » Mon May 08, 2017 1:56 pm

It is pretty funny today how the Daily Mail has decided not to mention the French election on its front page AT ALL.

I mean theres right wing and then theres RIGHT WING.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by KK » Mon May 08, 2017 2:07 pm

It'd be interesting to see how many pages the Daily Mail has dedicated to the election in the paper today, and if they have anything to say on it themselves.

The Sun Says didn't comment at all, instead opting to bash Corbyn and expensive 118 188 lines.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon May 08, 2017 2:23 pm

DML wrote:It is pretty funny today how the Daily Mail has decided not to mention the French election on its front page AT ALL.

I mean theres right wing and then theres RIGHT WING.


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:lol:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Garth » Mon May 08, 2017 3:03 pm

UK house prices in first quarterly fall since 2012: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39842715
Martin Ellis, Halifax housing economist, said one reason why prices were slowing was that property had become too expensive for many people.

Shocking.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by KK » Mon May 08, 2017 3:10 pm

I think for the younger buyer/renter, falling houses prices could be an extremely positive outcome from Brexit (unless you get sacked, obvs).

Even if prices fell by 10%, they'd still be bloody high.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by captain red dog » Mon May 08, 2017 3:14 pm

KK wrote:I think for the younger buyer/renter, falling houses prices could be an extremely positive outcome from Brexit (unless you get sacked, obvs).

Even if prices fell by 10%, they'd still be bloody high.

Yep I'm lucky I could afford my house due to having a reasonably high paid job at the time, but if I was still on that salary now as a first time buyer I would be utterly strawberry floated and unable to buy given the prices at the moment.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon May 08, 2017 3:27 pm

KK wrote:I think for the younger buyer/renter, falling houses prices could be an extremely positive outcome from Brexit (unless you get sacked, obvs).

Even if prices fell by 10%, they'd still be bloody high.


They'd have to absolutely collapse to make much difference to those struggling to buy. A collapse like that would mean the economy was in tatters which would probably mean high unemployment which means people wouldn't be able to buy.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Mon May 08, 2017 3:43 pm

How is that Daily Mail headline even described as Exposed or Exclusive? Literally everyone who buys insurance knows that existing customers get ripped off to offer new customers better deals. That's why everybody tells you to change insurance company every year and not just stick with the same one.

Lagamorph's Underwater Photography Thread
Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Mon May 08, 2017 3:45 pm

Lagamorph wrote:How is that Daily Mail headline even described as Exposed or Exclusive? Literally everyone who buys insurance knows that existing customers get ripped off to offer new customers better deals. That's why everybody tells you to change insurance company every year and not just stick with the same one.


You're focusing on the wrong thing. PRINCE HARRY KISSED SOMEBODY!!! OMG!!!

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Mon May 08, 2017 3:46 pm

Moggy wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:How is that Daily Mail headline even described as Exposed or Exclusive? Literally everyone who buys insurance knows that existing customers get ripped off to offer new customers better deals. That's why everybody tells you to change insurance company every year and not just stick with the same one.


You're focusing on the wrong thing. PRINCE HARRY KISSED SOMEBODY!!! OMG!!!

"Rich man kisses gold digger" is about as exposed and exclusive as "Insurance renewal is a rip off" and "Water is wet"

Lagamorph's Underwater Photography Thread
Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Mon May 08, 2017 5:25 pm

The reason why the more right wing members don't post is for the reasons I've previously stated. The utter flaming we'd get. From the socialist and liberal fanboys.


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