The Politics Thread 3.0

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Return_of_the_STAR » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:35 pm

lex-man wrote:Does anyone else find it weird that Corbyn is a Brexiter but the Leave.EU crowd hate him with a passion but young pro-EU people seem to deeply love him?

He is arguably the most pro Brexit MP.


I do find it really funny actually. Especially when you read the comments on the DM online about Corbyn trying to derail Brexit and wanting a soft a Brexit as possible.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Dowbocop » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:31 pm

Denster wrote:One earned by working an extra year and continues for seven years. The professional development is assessed by the staff and their line manager and only in exceptional cases is it not granted as a formality. At all levels.

Wherever I've worked in the NHS, if you've "failed" your appraisal then you don't get your increment. Whether or not appraisals are done properly is a different argument (one which is worth having by the way), but the increments are performance related by design. They are not to cover cost of living increases or inflation. That is what the 1% is supposedly for.

I spoke to my wife (who works with NHS policy stuff for a living) and she actually agrees with you that increments are pay rises in the purest sense - I'm not arguing the numbers in your payslip don't get bigger, I've got only my second one coming in September and I'm hyped!

My argument is that every time you move a band or start in the NHS you start on an AfC spinal point and will move up one each year if appropriate (see above). This does not change, it's contractual. So it could be argued that you agree to a fixed term performance related pay elevation through AfC increments in the same way you agree to a mortgage term or a loan contract. Put more succinctly, you agree on a forecast of you improving as a person and being worth more money, with yearly appraisals. Note that there are no hard figures here, because that is in the AfC pay scale matrix, and should be rising with inflation. That's the actual pay rise!

Like I say, I know not everyone agrees with me on all the semantics, but I don't like increments being likened to inflationary pay rises. They aren't the same thing. Whether you feel the PDRs are box ticking exercises or not, the increments are not guaranteed.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:09 am

Dowbocop wrote:
Denster wrote:One earned by working an extra year and continues for seven years. The professional development is assessed by the staff and their line manager and only in exceptional cases is it not granted as a formality. At all levels.

Wherever I've worked in the NHS, if you've "failed" your appraisal then you don't get your increment. Whether or not appraisals are done properly is a different argument (one which is worth having by the way), but the increments are performance related by design. They are not to cover cost of living increases or inflation. That is what the 1% is supposedly for.

I spoke to my wife (who works with NHS policy stuff for a living) and she actually agrees with you that increments are pay rises in the purest sense - I'm not arguing the numbers in your payslip don't get bigger, I've got only my second one coming in September and I'm hyped!

My argument is that every time you move a band or start in the NHS you start on an AfC spinal point and will move up one each year if appropriate (see above). This does not change, it's contractual. So it could be argued that you agree to a fixed term performance related pay elevation through AfC increments in the same way you agree to a mortgage term or a loan contract. Put more succinctly, you agree on a forecast of you improving as a person and being worth more money, with yearly appraisals. Note that there are no hard figures here, because that is in the AfC pay scale matrix, and should be rising with inflation. That's the actual pay rise!

Like I say, I know not everyone agrees with me on all the semantics, but I don't like increments being likened to inflationary pay rises. They aren't the same thing. Whether you feel the PDRs are box ticking exercises or not, the increments are not guaranteed.


Yep. On that point you're spot on. I pretty much decided to get a band six or charge nurse post once I was reaching the top increment of band five (staff nurse) because I know then (around 2012-13) that austerity would continue. It encouraged me to be ambitious.

I suppose my point is that a newly qualified nurse may start on 22,00 or so but there is s clear path that would see them earning upwards of 35,00 before they actually stop getting increments. That's where I am now. What's not mentioned when discussing NHS staff pay is that those who work shifts can earn considerably more if they work unsocial hours. It can be worth 3-4 grand a year easily.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Grumpy David » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:15 am

I get the chance to look at Nurses payslips quite regularly in my job. If you're doing nursing in London with a few years experience, and doing "bank" work or Agency work in addition to the normal NHS job role, you can earn easily 40k+. I've seen nurses working exclusively via agencies with P60s showing 50-60k salaries.

I don't understand why the additional layer (wastage) of agencies even needs to exist, it surely must be cheaper to keep staff all under one roof instead of paying ridiculous day rates to locum staff.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Knoyleo » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:32 am

Denster wrote:What's not mentioned when discussing NHS staff pay is that those who work shifts can earn considerably more if they work unsocial hours. It can be worth 3-4 grand a year easily.

I don't see why people should have to switch to anti social working hours, just to avoid a real terms pay cut. And what about those who already work nights and weekends? Where do they do to mitigate a real terms cut?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Hime » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:59 am

Knoyleo wrote:
Denster wrote:What's not mentioned when discussing NHS staff pay is that those who work shifts can earn considerably more if they work unsocial hours. It can be worth 3-4 grand a year easily.

I don't see why people should have to switch to anti social working hours, just to avoid a real terms pay cut. And what about those who already work nights and weekends? Where do they do to mitigate a real terms cut?

They would get an extra increment every year?

I work in an industry that was denationalised but we still have a nationalised style band system for pay. You have a full shift and and a part shift payment which basically means that you get paid more for nights shifts. They need to incentive people to do nights shifts as most people would rather not do them.

I would imagine the major difference between us and the NHS is that our unions get some kind of pay deal so that you get a 'pay rise' that at the very least makes sure we keep up with inflation.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Return_of_the_STAR » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:08 pm

Hime wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
Denster wrote:What's not mentioned when discussing NHS staff pay is that those who work shifts can earn considerably more if they work unsocial hours. It can be worth 3-4 grand a year easily.

I don't see why people should have to switch to anti social working hours, just to avoid a real terms pay cut. And what about those who already work nights and weekends? Where do they do to mitigate a real terms cut?

They would get an extra increment every year?

I work in an industry that was denationalised but we still have a nationalised style band system for pay. You have a full shift and and a part shift payment which basically means that you get paid more for nights shifts. They need to incentive people to do nights shifts as most people would rather not do them.

I would imagine the major difference between us and the NHS is that our unions get some kind of pay deal so that you get a 'pay rise' that at the very least makes sure we keep up with inflation.


My wife was a biomedical scientist for an NHS hospital. She was paid well for night shifts 8pm to 8am. She would get about £100 - £200 on top of her normal pay for each night shift, depending on the day. Then they brought in agenda for change which led to them getting paid £10 extra for a 12 hr night shift. They changed the contracts so that it was no part of the job to work these shifts and they were making them do more than twice as many of them in a month.

As a result they all went on strike (all of them apart from 3, out of a staff of 50). The trust then bought in agency staff are 3 times the pay. This went on for a number of months. It ended in 45 of the 50 staff resigning. The result was that now it has a very high staff turnover, only attracts newly qualified staff who then move on elsewhere. They also still employ a number of agency staff 3 years on who are still being paid at agency rates.

Essentially she was on around £30k a year (including her shift payments and they wanted her to do the same job, twice as many unsociable shifts for £22K a year.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by lex-man » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:44 pm

Grumpy David wrote:I get the chance to look at Nurses payslips quite regularly in my job. If you're doing nursing in London with a few years experience, and doing "bank" work or Agency work in addition to the normal NHS job role, you can earn easily 40k+. I've seen nurses working exclusively via agencies with P60s showing 50-60k salaries.

I don't understand why the additional layer (wastage) of agencies even needs to exist, it surely must be cheaper to keep staff all under one roof instead of paying ridiculous day rates to locum staff.


It depends on the kind of nursing they do and their experience.

Also doing bank work can be risky as you might not get all the shifts you need. Not sure if you still get pension payments either.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Karl » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:10 pm

Grumpy David wrote:I get the chance to look at Nurses payslips quite regularly in my job. If you're doing nursing in London with a few years experience, and doing "bank" work or Agency work in addition to the normal NHS job role, you can earn easily 40k+. I've seen nurses working exclusively via agencies with P60s showing 50-60k salaries.


Do you really think 60k salaries are the norm (or indeed 'easy') for your average nurse? It's just not relevant to the debate. Take teachers for a slightly different example: I'm sure there are also a few teachers out there absolutely raking it in (due to whatever circumstance) but that doesn't mean the typical teacher isn't underpaid & undervalued.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Dowbocop » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:27 pm

Denster wrote:Yep. On that point you're spot on. I pretty much decided to get a band six or charge nurse post once I was reaching the top increment of band five (staff nurse) because I know then (around 2012-13) that austerity would continue. It encouraged me to be ambitious.

I suppose my point is that a newly qualified nurse may start on 22,00 or so but there is s clear path that would see them earning upwards of 35,00 before they actually stop getting increments. That's where I am now. What's not mentioned when discussing NHS staff pay is that those who work shifts can earn considerably more if they work unsocial hours. It can be worth 3-4 grand a year easily.

It increases ambition, but it can also punish loyalty and deter qualified and experienced job applicants. My wife came in at the top of her pay band due to prior experience so she has no increment, and there's currently no space above her. Last year her 1% pushed her into a higher pension bracket so she actually lost money! I am currently about midway up band 4. My vertical career opportunities after this job are currently team leadership then programme management. Obviously there are usually only one or two of each of those in each organisation, which again leaves little room for upwards career progression if nobody moves on. It's not always as simple as just getting the next job up.

Knoyleo wrote:I don't see why people should have to switch to anti social working hours, just to avoid a real terms pay cut. And what about those who already work nights and weekends? Where do they do to mitigate a real terms cut?

In a way I object to this being framed as "nurses' pay" (not just here but in the media in general) - I am not a nurse and I work in outpatients. I currently have no opportunity for bank work and no opportunity for anti-social hours. What I get is what I get, and there are a lot of people like me in the same boat.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Errkal » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:43 am

It also ballses people inside really of the service where what Denny said isn't possible.

I working IT we were on AfC I was a band 5, my manage was an 8a the only want to move to a 6 or 7 was to leave the team is parked in a nd move to a totally different area of IT and actually do a less technical and for boring role just for more money.

I was effectively trapped due to how AfC determines role value and that ended up being a driver for me to leave (along with CSUs being a massive gooseberry fool show) and go work for a private company doing much the same thing and still for the NHS.

I have a few point left but not many so would have very soon been stuck with no rises and very very little chance of any.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by lex-man » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:46 pm

Errkal wrote:It also ballses people inside really of the service where what Denny said isn't possible.

I working IT we were on AfC I was a band 5, my manage was an 8a the only want to move to a 6 or 7 was to leave the team is parked in a nd move to a totally different area of IT and actually do a less technical and for boring role just for more money.

I was effectively trapped due to how AfC determines role value and that ended up being a driver for me to leave (along with CSUs being a massive gooseberry fool show) and go work for a private company doing much the same thing and still for the NHS.

I have a few point left but not many so would have very soon been stuck with no rises and very very little chance of any.


One of the tories aims is to push skilled workers into the private sector. A tory backed think tank suggested that all teachers should be scrapped and replaced with on line digital courses and bouncers in classrooms. As it would help economic activity.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by KK » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:02 pm

My opinion of Paxman really has bombed in recent months. First, trading his wife in for a much younger model, then his crappy leaders debate interview on Sky/C4 and now he's fallen to that oh so predictable routine of slagging off the BBC now he's left it.

'A politically correct, parastatal organisation too focused on some disabled refugee from Syria rather than the taxpayer who would have to foot the bill.'

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by bear » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:43 pm

KK wrote:My opinion of Paxman really has bombed in recent months. First, trading his wife in for a much younger model, then his crappy leaders debate interview on Sky/C4 and now he's fallen to that oh so predictable routine of slagging off the BBC now he's left it.

'A politically correct, parastatal organisation too focused on some disabled refugee from Syria rather than the taxpayer who would have to foot the bill.'

Presenting that second sentence as a direct quote from the interview instead of a mish mash of phrases lifted from the interview and then awkwardly sandwiched together is more than a bit lousy.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:30 pm

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Rex Kramer » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:49 am

Am I seeing more in the fact that the Brexit boys (Gove, Johnson etc) seem to be lining up against Hammond (soft Brexit) on this public pay thing?

Let's also not forget that we had the option of abandoning the pay freeze less than a week ago. banana splits, the pair of them.

Michael Gove voted against an energy price cap; against a properly resourced industrial strategy; against maintaining the benefits of the European Single Market and Customs Union; against maintaining the existing rights of EU nationals living in the UK and EU nationals living in the EU; against increased funding of public services; against scrapping university tuition fees; against restoring Education Maintenance Allowance, maintenance grants and nurses’ bursaries; against ending the public sector pay cap and against increasing the minimum wage.


Boris Johnson voted against an energy price cap; against a properly resourced industrial strategy; against maintaining the benefits of the European Single Market and Customs Union; against maintaining the existing rights of EU nationals living in the UK and EU nationals living in the EU; against increased funding of public services; against scrapping university tuition fees; against restoring Education Maintenance Allowance, maintenance grants and nurses’ bursaries; against ending the public sector pay cap and against increasing the minimum wage.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by KK » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:52 pm

Plans to get rid of free school lunches for infants (from better off families) in England has been binned.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:57 pm

KK wrote:Plans to get rid of free school lunches for infants (from better off families) in England has been binned.


May u-turns so much that she is basically just doing doughnuts. :lol:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Squinty » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:18 am

According to The Independent, fire services have received a pay offer beyond the cap. Other public services are going to be heaping pressure on the government.

The government literally has no idea what they are doing.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Squinty » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:18 am

According to The Independent, fire services have received a pay offer beyond the cap. Other public services are going to be heaping pressure on the government.

The government literally has no idea what they are doing.


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