The Politics Thread 3.0

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Knoyleo » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:43 am

KK wrote:Boris Johnson documentary on Channel 4 tonight at 10pm; they've been following him around for the past year. Fun times!

Yeah, I can't wait to watch an hour long puff piece that plays up to his carefully curated image of an aloof buffon.

More from Catalonia:



Are police in Spain following the same procedures from Franco's time?

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:45 am

Looks like May had a fun time on Andrew Marr’s Show this morning. :slol:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by bear » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:49 am

KK wrote:Boris Johnson documentary on Channel 4 tonight at 10pm; they've been following him around for the past year. Fun times!


Not related to the documentary but it's from today's papers.

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Knoyleo » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:00 am

He must have a lot of child support payments to make.

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Meep
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Meep » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:25 am

If that were the reason he could just resign. It seems more likely he is either A) trying to accelerate the time of May's demise or B) get himself fired so when brexshit hits the fan he can claim the mess is nothing to do with him because the government forced him out of the process. If he just resigned he could not complain about the final deal, or lack thereof, without sharing the blame.


Oh, and the situation in Catalonia is a mess. The referendum is invalid and needs to stop, of course, but a new and legitimately organised one needs to set up ASAP. What we are seeing on our screens today is a PR exercise by the independence movement. No one against independence is going to show up and vote because they don't agree the poll is legitimate and the messages coming up from the organisers back this up (openly telling people to stuff the ballot boxes with multiple votes), so obviously the result is going to be incredibly rigged. The problem is the Spanish authorities are playing straight into their hands.

Madrid needs to set a date for an official referendum right now and then tell everyone to go home and prepare for it in a few months; then pull out all the stops to secure a remain vote in the campaign. They need to make it clear that the vote to leave is also a vote to leave the security of the EU because at the moment the independence side is falsely stating otherwise. If they are allowed to proceed then the people if Catalonia will end up being thrown out into the economic wilderness with a hard border between themselves and friends and family living in the rest of Spain.

Last edited by Meep on Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:34 am

Johnson probably wants to be fired so that he can make himself into a martyr in the eyes of the hardcore Brexit crowd.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Squinty » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:37 am

Andrew Marr and Teresa May interview :lol:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by KK » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:44 am

May: 'Why the strawberry float isn't The One Show on a Sunday...'

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:44 am

Has there been much/any international criticism of Spain's handling of the Catalonia situation? Surely after today there's going to be comments from at least some world leaders.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Moggy » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:51 am

Meep wrote:Oh, and the situation in Catalonia is a mess. The referendum is invalid and needs to stop, of course, but a new and legitimately organised one needs to set up ASAP. What we are seeing on our screens today is a PR exercise by the independence movement. No one against independence is going to show up and vote because they don't agree the poll is legitimate and the messages coming up from the organisers back this up (openly telling people to stuff the ballot boxes with multiple votes), so obviously the result is going to be incredibly rigged. The problem is the Spanish authorities are playing straight into their hands.

Madrid needs to set a date for an official referendum right now and then tell everyone to go home and prepare for it in a few months; then pull out all the stops to secure a remain vote in the campaign. They need to make it clear that the vote to leave is also a vote to leave the security of the EU because at the moment the independence side is falsely stating otherwise. If they are allowed to proceed then the people if Catalonia will end up being thrown out into the economic wilderness with a hard border between themselves and friends and family living in the rest of Spain.


All true but the Spanish authorities are ensuring that any legal referendum will result in Catalonia independence. They are making it look like Franco is still in charge. :dread:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:04 pm

His reference to the birds nest and how he twisted her party line speak to suit his question was fantastic
A big cuckoo and a couple of Vultures.

Their body language at the fade out was interesting as well.

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Knoyleo » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:06 pm

Moggy wrote:
Meep wrote:Oh, and the situation in Catalonia is a mess. The referendum is invalid and needs to stop, of course, but a new and legitimately organised one needs to set up ASAP. What we are seeing on our screens today is a PR exercise by the independence movement. No one against independence is going to show up and vote because they don't agree the poll is legitimate and the messages coming up from the organisers back this up (openly telling people to stuff the ballot boxes with multiple votes), so obviously the result is going to be incredibly rigged. The problem is the Spanish authorities are playing straight into their hands.

Madrid needs to set a date for an official referendum right now and then tell everyone to go home and prepare for it in a few months; then pull out all the stops to secure a remain vote in the campaign. They need to make it clear that the vote to leave is also a vote to leave the security of the EU because at the moment the independence side is falsely stating otherwise. If they are allowed to proceed then the people if Catalonia will end up being thrown out into the economic wilderness with a hard border between themselves and friends and family living in the rest of Spain.


All true but the Spanish authorities are ensuring that any legal referendum will result in Catalonia independence. They are making it look like Franco is still in charge. :dread:

And that image is going to do a lot to shift opinion across Spain.

It's quite funny watching all the hot takes from Eurosceptics on twitter claiming that the police response is typical of EU control, and supporting Catalans in wanting to leave, not realising that the main body of the independence movement want to remain in the EU, just not as a part of Spain.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Denster » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:24 pm

Yes. That distinction or lack of it is becoming annoying.

I bet Gibraltar find that veto reference from Spain even less funny now.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Cuttooth » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:39 pm

Firefighters are having to lead the line against Spanish police to protect Catalan protestors. Completely insane situation and a disgusting response by the police/Spanish government.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Lagamorph » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:17 pm

There are reports that people are able to print ballots at home and even put in multiple ballots per person.
No supporters are also expected not to come out and vote as doing so would add to the legitimacy of the referendum.

So I'd say it's pretty much a guarantee that yes is going to win, there's little to no "If" about it.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Return_of_the_STAR » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:34 pm

Lagamorph wrote:There are reports that people are able to print ballots at home and even put in multiple ballots per person.
No supporters are also expected not to come out and vote as doing so would add to the legitimacy of the referendum.

So I'd say it's pretty much a guarantee that yes is going to win, there's little to no "If" about it.


Well yeah because of the Spanish governments position and interference we are never going to see a proper reflective result.

I think they've made a massive own goal here. They would have been better off allowing it to go ahead and making it clear that they don't recognise the result.

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Meep
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Meep » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:00 pm

Trying to stop a vote in itself lends the vote legitimacy. If the vote is illegitimate you should just ignore it because the result is irrelevant, right? No sense in stopping people putting pointless paper in pointless boxes.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Errkal » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:02 pm

Meep wrote:Trying to stop a vote in itself lends the vote legitimacy. If the vote is illegitimate you should just ignore it because the result is irrelevant, right? No sense in stopping people putting pointless paper in pointless boxes.

Doing nothing would make the result more accurate and if it is overwhelmignly in favour of independence they would have to do something as it would an affront to democracy to ignore it.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Alvin Flummux » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:08 pm

Errkal wrote:
Meep wrote:Trying to stop a vote in itself lends the vote legitimacy. If the vote is illegitimate you should just ignore it because the result is irrelevant, right? No sense in stopping people putting pointless paper in pointless boxes.

Doing nothing would make the result more accurate and if it is overwhelmignly in favour of independence they would have to do something as it would an affront to democracy to ignore it.


Is it not also an affront to democracy to deny the will of the people to hold a referendum in the first place, using force to silence their voices by removing ballot boxes and the like?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 3.0
by Cuttooth » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:15 pm

Errkal wrote:
Meep wrote:Trying to stop a vote in itself lends the vote legitimacy. If the vote is illegitimate you should just ignore it because the result is irrelevant, right? No sense in stopping people putting pointless paper in pointless boxes.

Doing nothing would make the result more accurate and if it is overwhelmignly in favour of independence they would have to do something as it would an affront to democracy to ignore it.

They had a referendum in 2014 which was overwhemingly pro-independence but with a turnout of under 50%. The Spanish government ignored it because it was deemed unconstitutional to hold the referendum regardless, much like this one.

The only difference this time round seems to be the Catalan government saying this one is a legally binding referendum so you’d maybe see some tension after the result but ultimately the Spanish government could completely ignore the result if they wanted. Having the police sieze polling stations and ballot boxes, and the violence being carried out against people trying to protest, or even vote, is an absolutely unacceptable response in a democratic society.


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