Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!

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jamcc
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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by jamcc » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:15 pm

Agree. Just like when Balotelli walked down the tunnel at the end of thr game. No idea what that was about but he eventually came back and Mowbray said "he seems to have come back of his own accord". How could he have possibly had any idea as to whether that was the case or not?

And Ginga, the fact that it has been a popular topic means a lot of people did think they were boring. Not that consensus is always an indicator of correctness but I certainly thought they were dull. Last night though, they were so much better and were a joy to watch.

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PsychicSykes
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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by PsychicSykes » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:16 pm

I don't think Spain played any differently in the final then they did during any other match. Italy played differently than most their opponents though.

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by DML » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:23 pm

Ginga wrote:Y'know, just because you put it in caps and post it often, doesn't make it true. I'm bored of people talking about whether they were boring or not.


As much as this will pain you - we will have to agree to disagree.

The final was great though.

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by aayl1 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:30 pm

Kanbei wrote:Eamonn Dunphy :lol: :lol: :lol:



What an idiot! :lol:

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Ginga » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:39 pm

jamcc wrote: Ginga, the fact that it has been a popular topic means a lot of people did think they were boring. Not that consensus is always an indicator of correctness but I certainly thought they were dull. Last night though, they were so much better and were a joy to watch.


For gooseberry fools and giggles...

At the risk of sounding all Keown, Spain's whole style is to be patient and wait for gaps to appear. They're more than comfortable retaining the ball until they find a perfect gap or a cutting pass. Italy, the second time around, were the first team to really open up and push on from the start against Spain. Maybe it was that arrogance and bravado that saw them lose the focus they had in the opening game. it looked they were believed they could outplay the Spaniards, as they'd done as much to both England and Germany.

The injuries didn't help but Spain are clinical. They got in behind the defence time and again but from the moment they went behind, the Italians were sloppy. Fabregas and Iniesta were allowed to pin the back three to the edge of their box (one that changed time and again as the night wore on) and strangled the amount of time Pirlo would have on the ball. Motta was brought on to add guile but the injury curtailed any chance of doing that.

Before that, though, the Italian midfield attempted to set up in a way that would allow them to push up and play off Fabregas' lack of place through the middle - but by working off a breakable bank of six, with Busquets the metronome and Alonso the sweeper, Spain simply shifted gear and had Alba and Ramos stretching the shape by bombing forward every time Xavi or Iniesta got it. I think that's what's key - the minute Spain add width, that's when the gaps appear. They almost always attempt to knacker the opposition's legs out before introducing someone fresh on the flanks; Pedro, Navas, Mata.

What I saw was an Italian team that got frustrated. Playing so many men in midfield can backfire, ala Scotland, when people get lazy or shift responsibility to others. Spain don't do that, they're tireless in pass/move, pass/move. There's a surprise in watching a team doing everything right. Usually I'm watching one that's doing everything wrong. The Italians were the least stuffy team to play Spain and they got thumped. I, personally, don't think it's anything to do with the Spanish being boring but rather the tactics employed by the opposition.

I've heard a few people say how wonderful this "tiki-taka" but it's almost just a bizz word now. Tiki-taka is all one-touch, ping-pong stuff. In the last year or so, Spain and Barcelona have moved away from that slightly, they're 'standing' on the ball more. It's evolved a bit, I guess? Guardiola tinkered a lot over the last few years and we've seen the effects filter through. I think that's where the criticism of Spain comes from - they perhaps aren't as blisteringly quick as Barca were in '09 but, again, I'd argue that a more reasoned approach has actually benefited them as it comes from the result of the opposition employing increasingly negative tactics, yet Spain are still winning and still in total control of games.

I just find the use of the word "boring" to be utterly jarring. It explains nothing, it doesn't open up debate or conversation, it's dismissive and negative. You're effectively writing off a team which just seems ignorant and lacking in perspective and context.

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Pancake
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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Pancake » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:43 pm

You make some interesting points but I don't think you need 'perspective' or 'context' to decide whether you think a certain style of play is boring or not.

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Glowy69 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:49 pm

Oooh a massively long post by ginga. Does it try to explain how wrong your opinion is? Or, say that you aren't allowed to just use the word "boring" as it doesn't explain anything or open up the potential for someone to try and dissect your argument and prove you wrong?

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Igor » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:52 pm

Why is intelligent debate in football seen as a bad thing? Is it because football is a working man's sport for the lads to get together and lad it up?

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Glowy69 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:55 pm

Its not a bad thing igor.

Fabian Delph is a banana split.

Drumstick wrote:I'll go on record in stating that Villa won't finish inside the top 6 this season.

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Ginga » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:55 pm

glowy69 wrote:Oooh a massively long post by ginga. Does it try to explain how wrong your opinion is? Or, say that you aren't allowed to just use the word "boring" as it doesn't explain anything or open up the potential for someone to try and dissect your argument and prove you wrong?


I wasn't looking for an argument, I was just trying to explain my personal opinion with a bit more length. Does reading bother you or is it the fact I'm completely comfortable that we don't agree?

But, sure, people can "prove me wrong" if they like - I'm not sure how that's possible seeing as I'm not trying to be proven right. Does everything need to be hostile?

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by SandyCoin » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:57 pm

You are writing in the football thread. It's always hostile.

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Poncho » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:31 pm

glowy69 wrote:Oooh a massively long post by ginga. Does it try to explain how wrong your opinion is? Or, say that you aren't allowed to just use the word "boring" as it doesn't explain anything or open up the potential for someone to try and dissect your argument and prove you wrong?


You're rather insecure, aren't you?

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Glowy69 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:36 pm

Me? Not at all.

Fabian Delph is a banana split.

Drumstick wrote:I'll go on record in stating that Villa won't finish inside the top 6 this season.

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jamcc
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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by jamcc » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:31 pm

Ginga wrote:
jamcc wrote: Ginga, the fact that it has been a popular topic means a lot of people did think they were boring. Not that consensus is always an indicator of correctness but I certainly thought they were dull. Last night though, they were so much better and were a joy to watch.


For gooseberry fools and giggles...

At the risk of sounding all Keown, Spain's whole style is to be patient and wait for gaps to appear. They're more than comfortable retaining the ball until they find a perfect gap or a cutting pass. Italy, the second time around, were the first team to really open up and push on from the start against Spain. Maybe it was that arrogance and bravado that saw them lose the focus they had in the opening game. it looked they were believed they could outplay the Spaniards, as they'd done as much to both England and Germany.

The injuries didn't help but Spain are clinical. They got in behind the defence time and again but from the moment they went behind, the Italians were sloppy. Fabregas and Iniesta were allowed to pin the back three to the edge of their box (one that changed time and again as the night wore on) and strangled the amount of time Pirlo would have on the ball. Motta was brought on to add guile but the injury curtailed any chance of doing that.

Before that, though, the Italian midfield attempted to set up in a way that would allow them to push up and play off Fabregas' lack of place through the middle - but by working off a breakable bank of six, with Busquets the metronome and Alonso the sweeper, Spain simply shifted gear and had Alba and Ramos stretching the shape by bombing forward every time Xavi or Iniesta got it. I think that's what's key - the minute Spain add width, that's when the gaps appear. They almost always attempt to knacker the opposition's legs out before introducing someone fresh on the flanks; Pedro, Navas, Mata.

What I saw was an Italian team that got frustrated. Playing so many men in midfield can backfire, ala Scotland, when people get lazy or shift responsibility to others. Spain don't do that, they're tireless in pass/move, pass/move. There's a surprise in watching a team doing everything right. Usually I'm watching one that's doing everything wrong. The Italians were the least stuffy team to play Spain and they got thumped. I, personally, don't think it's anything to do with the Spanish being boring but rather the tactics employed by the opposition.

I've heard a few people say how wonderful this "tiki-taka" but it's almost just a bizz word now. Tiki-taka is all one-touch, ping-pong stuff. In the last year or so, Spain and Barcelona have moved away from that slightly, they're 'standing' on the ball more. It's evolved a bit, I guess? Guardiola tinkered a lot over the last few years and we've seen the effects filter through. I think that's where the criticism of Spain comes from - they perhaps aren't as blisteringly quick as Barca were in '09 but, again, I'd argue that a more reasoned approach has actually benefited them as it comes from the result of the opposition employing increasingly negative tactics, yet Spain are still winning and still in total control of games.

I just find the use of the word "boring" to be utterly jarring. It explains nothing, it doesn't open up debate or conversation, it's dismissive and negative. You're effectively writing off a team which just seems ignorant and lacking in perspective and context.


I agree with you about the opposition being negative. We saw that a lot at the WC. But in the games before the final Spain seemed to just pass the ball across midfield for long periods, as though they simply wanted to keep possession. I think that's what people found boring. Spain have an incredible depth of talent and can play some of the best football ever seen at international level, so the frustration of the 'boring' performances added to the criticism.

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Ginga » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:34 pm

I realise I make it sound like the Italian box kept changing throughout the night. Meant the defence.

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Denster » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:42 pm

I really don't know why the debate is going on. Spain do control games as you say but their patient play (whilst serving the very effective purpose of frustrating and tiring their opponents) can lead to dull games with very little goal mouth action for protracted periods. However, they are capable or cranking up several notches (as they did against Italy and Portugal (in extra time)) and i suppose many of us wish they would play like that more often. That i think is the greatest criticism. Spain aren't arsed though - it's supremely effective for them.

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PostEuro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Buffalo » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:53 am

Ginga wrote:
glowy69 wrote:Oooh a massively long post by ginga. Does it try to explain how wrong your opinion is? Or, say that you aren't allowed to just use the word "boring" as it doesn't explain anything or open up the potential for someone to try and dissect your argument and prove you wrong?


I wasn't looking for an argument, I was just trying to explain my personal opinion with a bit more length. Does reading bother you or is it the fact I'm completely comfortable that we don't agree?

But, sure, people can "prove me wrong" if they like - I'm not sure how that's possible seeing as I'm not trying to be proven right. Does everything need to be hostile?


You'd need to put in about 35 emoticons for Glowy to understand it.

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by PaperMacheMario » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:02 pm

Denster wrote:I really don't know why the debate is going on.


People say they find Spain boring. Ginga comes in and explains how we're wrong, how they play the most advanced beautiful football ever. People agree, but still say that they find them boring to watch. Ginga explains in more detail that you have to have this special perspective to comment, and how classing them as boring just closes the discussion etc. People pound their computer screen, screaming "I DON'T strawberry floating CARE, I JUST FIND THEM BORING."

HSH28 wrote:Sounds what you really need is a sense of humour.
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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by Nova » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:54 pm

Great post, Ginga. It's a difficult situation, when a team plays against Spain or Barca, now. One playing style, played by such technically superior players, dictates how the other team must play, it seems to me. If you try to play expansive football, you will be crushed, because you're technically worse. So the only effective playing style is counter-attacking football.

The result is that the games can be a little dull, or the other team gets destroyed. It doesn't generally make for fabulous viewing, but what can you do?

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PostRe: Euro 2012 - Viva Espana!
by D_C » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:36 pm



:wub:

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