Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 116 injured

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by That » Wed May 24, 2017 3:17 pm

I guess I'm just naturally a bit suspicious of this idea of ramping up the threat level, getting some public paranoia/vigilance (depending on your POV...) going, and trotting the soldiers out. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I don't think it's necessarily intended to scare people, but I do think it's more about looking tough than actually solving a problem.

The actual folks solving this problem will be in offices at MI5, SIS, & GCHQ, analysing some dodgy Arabic text conversations or whatever. I'm just trying to be genuinely practical here and I don't see what this threat level stuff does to help those guys do their job better. I'm not trying to gooseberry fool stir or make this particularly political (I'm sure any government would have gone through the same playbook), I'm just wondering if adding to how tense and scared Joe Bloggs feels is really having a practical, positive effect on how quickly we actually catch these terrorists.

Hope that makes sense, like I say I'm not trying to stir or be disrespectful.

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by False » Wed May 24, 2017 3:25 pm

I think it makes people on the whole feel a bit better if the PM says that real actual professional killers are on the street instead of the busies. If they see that in general people and authorities are more tuned into the things slightly out of the ordinary they can go on with their regular lives.

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by KK » Wed May 24, 2017 3:39 pm

I think it's worth poiting out the decision to raise the threat level is taken by JTAC, which is seperate from government, and comprises various representatives from government departments and agencies (i.e. they're supposed to be independent of government ministers and those in Downing Street). The Head of JTAC is then accountable to the Director General of MI5, who then reports to the government's Joint Intelligence Committee, and then that overlooked by an Oversight Board, who monitors how effective JTAC is. Something like that anyway.

Operation Temperer is being used because the police themselves have asked for military support, with Defence Secretary Michael Fallon approving it. Now either the potential situation is so dire we now need the military, or we're only in this situation because the Police are underpowered...which, you could argue, is May's fault to begin with.

This decision wouldn't have been taken lightly though. The visual of having armed military everywhere looks pretty bad, conjuring up images of 'We're at war' and losing control.

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Cumberdanes » Wed May 24, 2017 3:42 pm

I'm getting sick of the ill informed bollocks clogging up my Facebook feed right now. This morning I woke to "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims" to which I responded "That's about as true as saying not all Irishmen are pub bombers but all pub bombers are Irishmen". Which in turn garnered the responses "At least the IRA warned people" and "At least the IRA didn't kill children".

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Preezy » Wed May 24, 2017 3:43 pm

Some of the pictures of police doing raids in Manchester show them being accompanied by soldiers, which are highly likely to be SAS. Watch out, bad guys, gooseberry fool just got real.

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 59 injured
by KjGarly » Wed May 24, 2017 3:47 pm

Denster wrote:
Photek wrote:
Denster wrote:I'm outraged and angry that it has happened in my city

It's ok to share if your outraged or angry but not heartbroken. Ridiculous.


For something to make me heartbroken - it has to be very personal to me. I'm not sure how you can be devastated or heartbroken at the death of strangers (however tragic their demise was). What words do you then use if you lose someone close to you?

Like I said - I am quite callous and I did add the caveat that I knew not everyone would agree.


I agree with Denny totally. Even the missus feels the same. How can you be so heartbroken over something this unless it's something you've personally experienced yet ignorant to the atrocities going on in the very same countries you want to 'send them Muslims back to'


strawberry float I remember reading some gooseberry fool about Isis sticking hundreds of kids into a big industrial bread kneader with the oldest being 4 years old. Or how about kids getting beheaded in front of their parents who are helpless to do anything. These sick banana splits are nothing more than sub-human rats using religion as an excuse to carry out their sick depravities on innocents. Try shedding a tear for those poor innocent children.

Hopefully Iraq's very own Rambo, Abu Azrael, kebabs a couple of thousand more of the sick strawberry floaters.

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Gandalf » Wed May 24, 2017 3:47 pm

Apparently one of the victims was an on-duty Police officer

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Preezy » Wed May 24, 2017 3:53 pm

If I had known about all that heinous gooseberry fool that you mentioned, Kj, I'd probably have shed a tear. I don't recall every seeing or hearing about it being reported in the press, which is probably no surprise as our press tends to focus on our own issues.

But anything to do with kids getting killed just breaks me. That's only since becoming a dad myself, mind. Before that I think I was quite desensitised to it all, but now it's so relatable it's just beyond comprehension how sick in the head you have to be to commit these sort of acts. These animals just need shooting, there should be zero quarter given, no mercy.

Blurgh, what a gooseberry fool storm :(

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Lotus » Wed May 24, 2017 4:13 pm

Raises some tricky issues, this. If the guy was known to police - presumably on some kind of terror watch-list - travelled to Libya, and then re-entered the UK, should coming back into the country in that kind of situation mean action should be taken? It seems obvious, but if so, what kind of action? Questioning alone probably wouldn't have stopped this, but what more can the police realistically and legally do?

Similarly, as with numerous other incidents in recent times, it seems that being known to the police actually means strawberry float all. But unless they're tracking every aspect of these people's activity 24/7, and one of them makes a glaring mistake that draws the focus onto them, what kind of action are you supposed to take?

Another issue is the fact that he was born here (I think?) and - travelling to Libya aside - may well have been radicalised here. How do we stop this home-grown threat? There's clearly an issue with integration and perhaps a sense of belonging or feeling marginalised. I remember going to college with loads of middle-eastern and asian kids who made it very clear that their loyalties and affections were for their parents' homelands, voicing their dislike of British people, and although born and raised here, they certainly felt no affinity to the UK. What do you do about those people and the potential for them to be persuaded to have their beliefs warped into something dangerous?

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Cumberdanes » Wed May 24, 2017 4:27 pm

Lotus wrote:Raises some tricky issues, this. If the guy was known to police - presumably on some kind of terror watch-list - travelled to Libya, and then re-entered the UK, should coming back into the country in that kind of situation mean action should be taken? It seems obvious, but if so, what kind of action? Questioning alone probably wouldn't have stopped this, but what more can the police realistically and legally do?

Similarly, as with numerous other incidents in recent times, it seems that being known to the police actually means strawberry float all. But unless they're tracking every aspect of these people's activity 24/7, and one of them makes a glaring mistake that draws the focus onto them, what kind of action are you supposed to take?

Another issue is the fact that he was born here (I think?) and - travelling to Libya aside - may well have been radicalised here. How do we stop this home-grown threat? There's clearly an issue with integration and perhaps a sense of belonging or feeling marginalised. I remember going to college with loads of middle-eastern and asian kids who made it very clear that their loyalties and affections were for their parents' homelands, voicing their dislike of British people, and although born and raised here, they certainly felt no affinity to the UK. What do you do about those people and the potential for them to be persuaded to have their beliefs warped into something dangerous?


I lived in a shared house with a load of guys from Saudi Arabia and had a similar experience. They were here studying and did nothing but complain about the UK and the North East in particular regularly telling me how it was the worst place they had ever been to, add that to them being some of the most racist people I have ever met particularly toward Indians it's easy to see why integration into British society is difficult.

Last edited by Cumberdanes on Wed May 24, 2017 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by KjGarly » Wed May 24, 2017 4:28 pm

Preezy wrote:If I had known about all that heinous gooseberry fool that you mentioned, Kj, I'd probably have shed a tear. I don't recall every seeing or hearing about it being reported in the press, which is probably no surprise as our press tends to focus on our own issues.

But anything to do with kids getting killed just breaks me. That's only since becoming a dad myself, mind. Before that I think I was quite desensitised to it all, but now it's so relatable it's just beyond comprehension how sick in the head you have to be to commit these sort of acts. These animals just need shooting, there should be zero quarter given, no mercy.

Blurgh, what a gooseberry fool storm :(


Don't get me wrong, as a dad myself I thought "gooseberry fool, that could be my daughter going concerts and places with her friends when she's older" she's only 3 and the world just keeps getting shittier and shittier so who knows what it's going to be like in the next 5 - 10 years when she's around the age of Mondays victims. I'm just really desensitised to gooseberry fool, probably didn't help growing up watching the likes of faces of death as a kid..

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by KK » Wed May 24, 2017 4:37 pm

Also channelling May from earlier:

BBC News wrote:Home Secretary Amber Rudd has said she is irritated with the US for releasing information about the Manchester bomber before UK police would have liked.

Ms Rudd said the British had wanted to control the flow of information to "keep the element of surprise".

She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme she had been very clear with Washington "that it should not happen again".

Ms Rudd said the Manchester-born bomber Salman Abedi had already been on the radar of the British security services.

She claimed the 22-year-old, born to parents of Libyan origin, "was known up to a point" in the UK.

Ms Rudd spoke out as the government raised the terrorism threat level to "critical" - the highest possible rating - on Tuesday amid fears another attack was imminent.

She said this meant the police would have 3,800 soldiers to call on and equipment for "as long as we need them".

The measures follow Monday night's attack at Manchester Arena, which killed 22 and injured 59.

Counter-terrorism detectives have spoken in the past about how important it sometimes is for them that names of suspects do not make it into the media. They say a delay of around 36 hours, before the public know who they are investigating can allow them to arrest known associates of the suspect before they know police are looking for them.

The measures follow Monday night's attack at Manchester Arena, which killed 22 and injured 59.

Information about the bomber's identity first emerged in the US - with American TV networks CBS and NBC naming Abedi as the suspect.

Ms Rudd was asked whether she would be looking at how information sharing may have resulted in the premature release of details the British police and security services had not wanted in the public domain.

The home secretary told Today: "Yes, quite frankly.
"The British police have been very clear they want to control the flow of information in order to protect operational integrity - the element of surprise - so it is irritating if it gets released from other sources, and I've been very clear with our friends that that should not happen again."

Pressed on whether the Americans had compromised the investigation, she said: "I wouldn't go that far, but I can say they are perfectly clear about the situation and that it shouldn't happen again."

BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith said Ms Rudd's irritation stemmed from the fact "crucial information about the investigation" had been "leaked to the media in the US".

She had been concerned that this "might have compromised aspects of the investigation", namely that it may have "alerted associates" of the bomber "that the security forces here knew who they were looking for".

He added: "Ms Rudd, I'm told, got on the blower to US officials and gave them a piece of her mind. Officials say they are in no doubt about our views on that."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40026413

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by SEP » Wed May 24, 2017 6:25 pm

IAmTheSaladMan wrote:I'm getting sick of the ill informed bollocks clogging up my Facebook feed right now. This morning I woke to "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims" to which I responded "That's about as true as saying not all Irishmen are pub bombers but all pub bombers are Irishmen". Which in turn garnered the responses "At least the IRA warned people" and "At least the IRA didn't kill children".


Should probably direct them to this wiki page...

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Cumberdanes » Wed May 24, 2017 6:30 pm

Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
IAmTheSaladMan wrote:I'm getting sick of the ill informed bollocks clogging up my Facebook feed right now. This morning I woke to "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims" to which I responded "That's about as true as saying not all Irishmen are pub bombers but all pub bombers are Irishmen". Which in turn garnered the responses "At least the IRA warned people" and "At least the IRA didn't kill children".


Should probably direct them to this wiki page...


I just brought up the Tokyo subway sarin attack.

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Squinty » Wed May 24, 2017 6:34 pm

IAmTheSaladMan wrote:I'm getting sick of the ill informed bollocks clogging up my Facebook feed right now. This morning I woke to "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims" to which I responded "That's about as true as saying not all Irishmen are pub bombers but all pub bombers are Irishmen". Which in turn garnered the responses "At least the IRA warned people" and "At least the IRA didn't kill children".


I've seen people say they want to deport all Muslims. And that all Muslims are basically terrorists because the Koran. And people saying the lovely Katie Hopkins didn't actually mean 'the final solution'.

I'm starting to get really sick of the hate peddling rhetoric that always comes with these acts of violence.

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Lex-Man » Wed May 24, 2017 6:37 pm

IAmTheSaladMan wrote:
Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
IAmTheSaladMan wrote:I'm getting sick of the ill informed bollocks clogging up my Facebook feed right now. This morning I woke to "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims" to which I responded "That's about as true as saying not all Irishmen are pub bombers but all pub bombers are Irishmen". Which in turn garnered the responses "At least the IRA warned people" and "At least the IRA didn't kill children".


Should probably direct them to this wiki page...


I just brought up the Tokyo subway sarin attack.


What about that right wing dick head in Oslo he basically went and gunned down a load of kids.

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Cumberdanes » Wed May 24, 2017 6:42 pm

I did bring up ETA too but since they don't operate in the UK nobody had heard of them. I didn't bother mentioning the largely Hindu Tamil Tigers either perhaps the inventors of the modern suicide bomb.

Last edited by Cumberdanes on Wed May 24, 2017 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by SEP » Wed May 24, 2017 6:46 pm

IAmTheSaladMan wrote:
Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
IAmTheSaladMan wrote:I'm getting sick of the ill informed bollocks clogging up my Facebook feed right now. This morning I woke to "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims" to which I responded "That's about as true as saying not all Irishmen are pub bombers but all pub bombers are Irishmen". Which in turn garnered the responses "At least the IRA warned people" and "At least the IRA didn't kill children".


Should probably direct them to this wiki page...


I just brought up the Tokyo subway sarin attack.


I was referring specifically to the IRA killing children.

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Moggy » Wed May 24, 2017 6:46 pm

IAmTheSaladMan wrote:I'm getting sick of the ill informed bollocks clogging up my Facebook feed right now. This morning I woke to "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims" to which I responded "That's about as true as saying not all Irishmen are pub bombers but all pub bombers are Irishmen". Which in turn garnered the responses "At least the IRA warned people" and "At least the IRA didn't kill children".


Yeah those lovely IRA types would never leave bombs anywhere near children.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04 ... e-officer/

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PostRe: Manchester Arena suicide bomb - 22 dead, 64 injured
by Cumberdanes » Wed May 24, 2017 6:47 pm

Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
IAmTheSaladMan wrote:
Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
IAmTheSaladMan wrote:I'm getting sick of the ill informed bollocks clogging up my Facebook feed right now. This morning I woke to "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims" to which I responded "That's about as true as saying not all Irishmen are pub bombers but all pub bombers are Irishmen". Which in turn garnered the responses "At least the IRA warned people" and "At least the IRA didn't kill children".


Should probably direct them to this wiki page...


I just brought up the Tokyo subway sarin attack.


I was referring specifically to the IRA killing children.


I realised that when I read the article :fp:

Although I was more concerned with the "all terrorists are Muslims" part.

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