Flag Appreciation Thread

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jawafour
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:55 am

Preezy wrote:I just can't separate the two anymore, unfortunately.

That is a genuine shame, man. I have felt like that in the past: perhaps around the late 80s when some racist groups seemed to be trying to "claim" the flag but, since then, I feel that more mainstream use of the flag (both the St George flag and the Union flag) has helped to wrestle back a positive image i.e. during sporting tournaments and in government / royal / local town events.

Moggy wrote:...I wouldn’t say I detest the English/British flag, but I completely understand why people do not want to fly it. It just seems utterly pointless to me to want a flag outside or on your house.

I do agree that some folk fly a flag for ill purpose, Moggy, but it feels like a shame to let them "win" over perception in this way. I am intrigued by your thought that it is pointless to want to fly a flag; I wonder if it is because you may feel that any form of symbolism leads to exclusion? I could understand that, but I prefer to view it as someone expressing that they are proud of their country / area. I hope it could be used to help foster belonging and unity rather than act as a point of divide.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:58 am

jawafour wrote:I do agree that some folk fly a flag for ill purpose, Moggy, but it feels like a shame to let them "win" over perception in this way. I am intrigued by your thought that it is pointless to want to fly a flag; I wonder if it is because you may feel that any form of symbolism leads to exclusion? I could understand that, but I prefer to view it as someone expressing that they are proud of their country / area. I hope it could be used to help foster belonging and unity rather than act as a point of divide.


I just don’t see the need to fly a flag. What purpose does it achieve?

I don’t need a bit of cloth flying outside my home to give myself a sense of identity.

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still
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by still » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:00 pm

This one’s my favourite:

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Preezy
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:00 pm

Moggy wrote:I don’t need a bit of cloth flying outside my home to give myself a sense of identity.

And yet you nail your loincloth to my hovel door on a nightly basis :|

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OrangeRakoon
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by OrangeRakoon » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:02 pm

Flag flying is tribalism, pure and simple. One of the weirdest and most memorable things for me from the one time I went to Northern Ireland was seeing all the houses in every village flying flags. It made me feel quite uncomfortable.

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Hyperion
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Hyperion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:08 pm

Drumstick wrote:In terms of flags I've always been quite partial to the Isle of Man variant.

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And then you have the Sicily variant which is absolutely terrifying

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:dread: :dread: :dread:

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:09 pm

Moggy wrote:I just don’t see the need to fly a flag. What purpose does it achieve?

I don’t need a bit of cloth flying outside my home to give myself a sense of identity.

That's fair enough, Moggy - I never have flown a flag outside my home and I don't plan on doing so, either. Even so, personally I feel that flags have a certain power; the potential to be used for good and bad. They can be more than a bit of cloth. Flags, and symbols and logos in general, can help to drive thought. Near where I live is a large council flag at the entrance to a park area and I like seeing it there; for me it flys as something to help make me proud of the local area. Not everyone may feel that way, of course :) .

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Hyperion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:15 pm

I walk past 29 different flags most mornings. I don't hate them and associate them with racists, I don't burst into tears with pride either, I think they look nice.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Rax » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:17 pm

The problem is that even if it fills you with pride, just about every flag will be seen by someone else as something negative or potentially hostile. As OR mentioned, its tribalism, you may be showing pride in where youre from but it can just as easily be interptered as anyone who doesnt like this flag is not welcome. Thats why flying flags at anywhere other than sporting events and goverment buildings is stupid. The Yanks love to fly the flag at home, should tell you all you need to know about whether its a good or bad idea. :dread:

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:19 pm

Rax wrote:The Yanks love to fly the flag at home, should tell you all you need to know about whether its a good or bad idea. :dread:

This this this :lol:

The American pledge of allegiance is so North Korean-esque, it's bizarre and disturbing in equal measure.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Drumstick » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:21 pm

Hyperion wrote:
Drumstick wrote:In terms of flags I've always been quite partial to the Isle of Man variant.

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And then you have the Sicily variant which is absolutely terrifying

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:dread: :dread: :dread:

That's wonderfully grotesque.

One man should not have this much power in this game. Luckily I'm not an ordinary man.
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:24 pm

Preezy wrote:
Moggy wrote:I don’t need a bit of cloth flying outside my home to give myself a sense of identity.

And yet you nail your loincloth to my hovel door on a nightly basis :|


That’s not my sense of identity, that’s my sense of ownership (of you). :datass:

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:26 pm

jawafour wrote:
Moggy wrote:I just don’t see the need to fly a flag. What purpose does it achieve?

I don’t need a bit of cloth flying outside my home to give myself a sense of identity.

That's fair enough, Moggy - I never have flown a flag outside my home and I don't plan on doing so, either. Even so, personally I feel that flags have a certain power; the potential to be used for good and bad. They can be more than a bit of cloth. Flags, and symbols and logos in general, can help to drive thought. Near where I live is a large council flag at the entrance to a park area and I like seeing it there; for me it flys as something to help make me proud of the local area. Not everyone may feel that way, of course :) .


I’ve no problem with them on council or government buildings. They make sense there.

Individuals flying them (outside of sport) just strikes me as odd. I just don’t get it.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Hyperion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:31 pm

I'm a fan of flag flying at the Proms and Eurovision

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:31 pm

Preezy wrote:
Rax wrote:The Yanks love to fly the flag at home, should tell you all you need to know about whether its a good or bad idea. :dread:

This this this :lol:

The American pledge of allegiance is so North Korean-esque, it's bizarre and disturbing in equal measure.


I was unfamiliar with the wording of the pledge and so I checked it out.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


I wouldn't say that sounded bizarre or disturbing. Sure, the religion aspect is perhaps questionable - personally I am not very religious - but the "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" part sounds pretty decent.

I could be wrong about this - I have no personal experience of visiting America - but I'd thought that their flag was flown by people regardless of their political beliefs; that it doesn't stand as a symbol of support for Trump, Clinton or anybody else - more as a display of pride in the country as a whole?

Edit: is the pledge longer than the version I posted? Am checking this out now!
Edit 2: No, that seems to be the full pledge.

Last edited by jawafour on Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:34 pm

I guess I just view a room full of schoolchildren blindly reciting the pledge a bit unsettling, it's like watching kids getting brainwashed. Why are children being forced (and believe me, they are forced) to pledge allegiance to anything, let alone an entire nation? Blind patriotism just isn't my bag, man.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:40 pm

Preezy wrote:I guess I just view a room full of schoolchildren blindly reciting the pledge a bit unsettling, it's like watching kids getting brainwashed. Why are children being forced (and believe me, they are forced) to pledge allegiance to anything, let alone an entire nation? Blind patriotism just isn't my bag, man.

Looking at that pledge, I'm not sure that I'd regard it as brainwashing. Sure, I would be worried about kids saying / learning more controversial things but, based on the wording that I've seen, it seems pretty reasonable. I love the idea of youngsters being encouraged to value "liberty and justice for all". Of course, whether the USA as a whole actually acts in that way all the time is questionable. Even so, that pledge would seem - to me - to be a positive thing.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:53 pm

jawafour wrote:
Preezy wrote:I guess I just view a room full of schoolchildren blindly reciting the pledge a bit unsettling, it's like watching kids getting brainwashed. Why are children being forced (and believe me, they are forced) to pledge allegiance to anything, let alone an entire nation? Blind patriotism just isn't my bag, man.

Looking at that pledge, I'm not sure that I'd regard it as brainwashing. Sure, I would be worried about kids saying / learning more controversial things but, based on the wording that I've seen, it seems pretty reasonable. I love the idea of youngsters being encouraged to value "liberty and justice for all". Of course, whether the USA as a whole actually acts in that way all the time is questionable. Even so, that pledge would seem - to me - to be a positive thing.


It's called "The Pledge of Allegiance". As Preezy said, why should kids have to pledge allegiance to something? And it's worse than that, the kids can be compelled to swear allegiance to it.

In 1940, the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case—Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry—could be compelled to swear the Pledge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)#Controversy


Forcing kids to take a pledge is wrong imo. And it seems rather desperate, forced patriotism just seems so insecure.

Edit:

Also the pledge itself:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


What the hell does pledging allegiance to a flag mean? If they add any more states (and so have an extra star or two) does the pledge not then count?

To the Republic for which it stands? Do kids understand what pledging allegiance to a republic means? What's the point of it if they don't quite get it?

One nation under God? What about polytheists? Atheists? Which God? Is God American?

Indivisible? That's a nice way of avoiding any secession in future I guess. Is that a good thing though? What if California wants independence?

With liberty and justice for all? That's a nice sentiment. But America doesn't mean it, the pledge was written while Jim Crow laws and segregation were in place. And they are still struggling to get liberty and justice for all. Can you pledge allegiance to a flag and then criticise how many black people are locked up under that flag?

Last edited by Moggy on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rax
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Rax » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:53 pm

jawafour wrote:
Preezy wrote:I guess I just view a room full of schoolchildren blindly reciting the pledge a bit unsettling, it's like watching kids getting brainwashed. Why are children being forced (and believe me, they are forced) to pledge allegiance to anything, let alone an entire nation? Blind patriotism just isn't my bag, man.

Looking at that pledge, I'm not sure that I'd regard it as brainwashing. Sure, I would be worried about kids saying / learning more controversial things but, based on the wording that I've seen, it seems pretty reasonable. I love the idea of youngsters being encouraged to value "liberty and justice for all". Of course, whether the USA as a whole actually acts in that way all the time is questionable. Even so, that pledge would seem - to me - to be a positive thing.

It would be if the pledge was to stand for liberty and justice for all, and schoolkids werent forced to recite it every day. Think about that, every morning, millions of children forced to pledge allegiance to a flag and acknoweledge the existence of one specific god. That sit ok with you?

Regardless they pledge allegiance to the flag and its one of the reason the anthem protest started in the NFL was so huge. It was interpreted as a protest against the flag, the flag that stands for liberty, justice, god, and especially the military. Take away the pledge brainwashing them into loving the flag and maybe they would have seen the protest for what it was, a protest against the intitutional racism experienced by minorities in America. Or maybe the conservatives would have found another way to spin the protest away from the real issue, either way framing it as a protest against the flag resonated with so many Americans because they spent every morning for 15 years pledging allegiance to it.

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still
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by still » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:02 pm

Tsk. Americans.


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