Flag Appreciation Thread

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Moggy
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:08 pm

I think that America should go back to the original salute that was used for the pledge.

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by OrangeRKN » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:21 pm

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


The whole hand-on-heart daily recital seems funny at best and like brainwashing at worst to me, which I think is in part due to the British national psyche of cynicism. The bolded though is the most problematic part I think. It is both religious sectarianism (what happened to the separation of church and state?) and unaccepting of any ideas of separatism/self-rule. Can you imagine what Scottish, Welsh or Irish nationalists would think about a similar pledge in the UK calling the country "indivisible"? Even the Cornish would probably be unhappy

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:27 pm

Rax wrote:...It was interpreted as a protest against the flag, the flag that stands for liberty, justice, god, and especially the military. Take away the pledge brainwashing them into loving the flag and maybe they would have seen the protest for what it was, a protest against the intitutional racism experienced by minorities in America...

As I said, Rax, I have no personal experience of the pledge. I can see that the religious aspect is uneasy (and I have looked into it to establish that this wording was added in later years - around the time of "communist fears" in the mid-twentieth century I believe) and, yes, I can see why this causes unease; especially for people who believe in another God(s). I'm not sure that the pledge promotes the military, racism or the persecution of minorities - the wording doesn't appear to but I am unfamiliar with how the pledge may be interpreted - or shared - by others.

Moggy wrote:What the hell does pledging allegiance to a flag mean?...

Moggy, it's perfectly acceptable that you could take that point of view for each aspect that you have picked out and, yes, it's right to question rather than follow unerringly. But could there not be a more positive side to each of the points that you made? I would think that most countries would wish for a united people with freedom and justice. Is it wrong to say that you wish for that; even if there are examples - past and current - where this has not been delivered? And even if there is a longer journey to go on to reach that point of absolute equality?

I don't have experience of how people learn the pledge but I would hope that they learn and discuss the meanings behind it in a positive and open way.

The religious aspect is very awkward. Personally I would wish for an acceptance of all religions that aim for harmony and unity. Even so, I am unsure that the pledge should include religious content.

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Kezzer
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Kezzer » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:33 pm

Drumstick wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Drumstick wrote:In terms of flags I've always been quite partial to the Isle of Man variant.

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And then you have the Sicily variant which is absolutely terrifying

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:dread: :dread: :dread:

That's wonderfully grotesque.



Hahahah! oh man that reminded me of this:



which in turn reminded me of some mashups me and Stugene made :lol:

http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=h ... phrocarlin

http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=h ... phrocarlin

http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=h ... phrocarlin

We made so many but I only have the links at home. :lol:

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https://i.imgur.com/p4kW4c7.png

Check out the Digital Combat Simulator thread for some hardcore aerial combat! | Mumble | PCGT V | The Photography Thread |
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Moggy
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:41 pm

jawafour wrote:Moggy, it's perfectly acceptable that you could take that point of view for each aspect that you have picked out and, yes, it's right to question rather than follow unerringly. But could there not be a more positive side to each of the points that you made?


Could you tell me the positives of forcing preschool kids to pledge allegiance to a flag?

I would think that most countries would wish for a united people with freedom and justice.


I am sure they all would. Is forcing preschool kids to pledge allegiance to a flag the best way of doing that?

Is it wrong to say that you wish for that; even if there are examples - past and current - where this has not been delivered?


Who said it was wrong to wish for a united people with freedom and justice? The pledge of allegiance doesn't just do that though does it?

And even if there is a longer journey to go on to reach that point of absolute equality?


The pledge has been around for over 100 years. You'd have thought if it had any effect on freedom and justice that things like segregation and groups like the KKK would have been exterminated a little quicker...

I don't have experience of how people learn the pledge but I would hope that they learn and discuss the meanings behind it in a positive and open way.


I know you try and look at the positive in everything, but at best a preschool pledge is meaningless and at worst it is state brainwashing.

The religious aspect is very awkward. Personally I would wish for an acceptance of all religions that aim for harmony and unity. Even so, I am unsure that the pledge should include religious content.


Would you like to see a pledge introduced for the UK?

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:12 pm

Moggy wrote:
jawafour wrote:Moggy, it's perfectly acceptable that you could take that point of view for each aspect that you have picked out and, yes, it's right to question rather than follow unerringly. But could there not be a more positive side to each of the points that you made?


Could you tell me the positives of forcing preschool kids to pledge allegiance to a flag?

I don't know the age that Americans start learning the pledge, but - barring my concern over the inclusion of the religious aspect - I don't see anything wrong with the remainder of the words. As I said before, I assume that kids are taught the meaning behind the words rather than just repeating them parrot-fashion. I accept that young kids are unlikely to grasp a great understanding until they are older.

Moggy wrote:
I would think that most countries would wish for a united people with freedom and justice.


I am sure they all would. Is forcing preschool kids to pledge allegiance to a flag the best way of doing that?

If by "forcing" we're talking about discussing the meaning in a way suitable for children to have a basic understanding of then, yeah, I don't see there is too much wrong with it. As per my previously response, I agree that kids will understand more once they are older. I don't have any great desire to talk about the USA pledge for kids that young; and I feel that school-age children will start to develop a better understanding.

Moggy wrote:
Is it wrong to say that you wish for that; even if there are examples - past and current - where this has not been delivered?


Who said it was wrong to wish for a united people with freedom and justice? The pledge of allegiance doesn't just do that though does it?

Barring the religious aspect, I feel that the remainder of the script appears to be pretty reasonable.

Moggy wrote:
And even if there is a longer journey to go on to reach that point of absolute equality?


The pledge has been around for over 100 years. You'd have thought if it had any effect on freedom and justice that things like segregation and groups like the KKK would have been exterminated a little quicker...

Having an objective doesn't mean that you're never going to fail. It's a goal; a desirable position... something that everyone feels would be a good thing to work towards.

Moggy wrote:
I don't have experience of how people learn the pledge but I would hope that they learn and discuss the meanings behind it in a positive and open way.


I know you try and look at the positive in everything, but at best a preschool pledge is meaningless and at worst it is state brainwashing.

As I have said, based on my understanding - and barring the religious aspect - I do not feel that the rest of the pledge is "state brainwashing".

Oh, and yes, I agree with your assertion that I do tend to seek the positives out of situations. Conversely, would it be fair to say that you tend to seek out the negatives?

Moggy wrote:
The religious aspect is very awkward. Personally I would wish for an acceptance of all religions that aim for harmony and unity. Even so, I am unsure that the pledge should include religious content.


Would you like to see a pledge introduced for the UK?

That's an interesting question and one that I haven't really thought about. Barring the religious aspect, I can see the positive desire of a USA-style pledge. I suspect that one would never be devised that everyone would agree on, though.

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Rax
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Rax » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:14 pm

jawafour wrote:
Rax wrote:...It was interpreted as a protest against the flag, the flag that stands for liberty, justice, god, and especially the military. Take away the pledge brainwashing them into loving the flag and maybe they would have seen the protest for what it was, a protest against the intitutional racism experienced by minorities in America...

As I said, Rax, I have no personal experience of the pledge. I can see that the religious aspect is uneasy (and I have looked into it to establish that this wording was added in later years - around the time of "communist fears" in the mid-twentieth century I believe) and, yes, I can see why this causes unease; especially for people who believe in another God(s). I'm not sure that the pledge promotes the military, racism or the persecution of minorities - the wording doesn't appear to but I am unfamiliar with how the pledge may be interpreted - or shared - by others.

Its not that the pledge promotes military, racism or persecution of minors, its that millions pledging allegiance to a flag every day has given them a cult like devotion to the flag and all it stands for. So when someone is accused of not respecting the flag theyre also not respecting the things it stands for. My point about the protests is the true meaning of them was lost as soon as people starting to say it was disrespecting the flag, the devotion to it oversame everything else and the real point of the protests no longer mattered.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by still » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:19 pm

I'm not pledging allegiance to anyone or anything, monarch, government, god, no-one. Certainly not this country which I no longer recognise as somewhere I belong. I was born in this country and that's it, nothing more. I owe no one my allegiance other than thorough my own free choice. Why on earth would we want to introduce the warped practice, or something similar, that America has?

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:21 pm

jawa, you're a lovely chap but I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this one.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Hyperion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:21 pm

The pledge of allegiance is much better than our national anthem

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by still » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 pm

Hyperion wrote:The pledge of allegiance is much better than our national anthem


I don't sing that either.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:24 pm

jawafour wrote:I don't know the age that Americans start learning the pledge, but - barring my concern over the inclusion of the religious aspect - I don't see anything wrong with the remainder of the words. As I said before, I assume that kids are taught the meaning behind the words rather than just repeating them parrot-fashion. I accept that young kids are unlikely to grasp a great understanding until they are older.


Preschool. From age 3.

I find it bizarre that you cannot see the problem with forcing kids to swear a pledge of allegiance at three years old.

If by "forcing" we're talking about discussing the meaning in a way suitable for children to have a basic understanding of then, yeah, I don't see there is too much wrong with it. As per my previously response, I agree that kids will understand more once they are older. I don't have any great desire to talk about the USA pledge for kids that young; and I feel that school-age children will start to develop a better understanding.


No Jawa, they are not “forcing” them, they are forcing them. My previous link gave you a supreme court ruling on whether it was optional (Jehovah’s Witnesses thought it was idolatry) and it is not.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t have any great desire to talk about it for kids that young, that’s the conversation we are having. We are talking about three year old children being forced to swear allegiance to a flag.

Barring the religious aspect, I feel that the remainder of the script appears to be pretty reasonable.


And for those that don’t want to do it?

As I have said, based on my understanding - and barring the religious aspect - I do not feel that the rest of the pledge is "state brainwashing".

Oh, and yes, I agree with your assertion that I do tend to seek the positives out of situations. Conversely, would it be fair to say that you tend to seek out the negatives?


Forcing three year olds to pledge allegiance to the state is pretty much textbook brainwashing.

I don’t seek out the negatives, I am positive about most things. I take a dim view on brainwashing kids though.

That's an interesting question and one that I haven't really thought about. Barring the religious aspect, I can see the positive desire of a USA-style pledge. I suspect that one would never be devised that everyone would agree on, though.


We have been talking about this, you have been singing the pledges praises and you haven’t even considered if it would be a good idea for the UK? This is like your earlier argument that Preezy and myself ought to “fly the flag” while then admitting that you don’t fly a flag. :lol:

What positives do you feel comes from forcing three year olds to swear allegiance to a flag/country?

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Hyperion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:26 pm

still wrote:
Hyperion wrote:The pledge of allegiance is much better than our national anthem


I don't sing that either.


Good lad

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:29 pm

I saw that Vermilion ;)

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Vermilion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:36 pm

Preezy wrote:Maybe I'm overthinking it.


Yeah, you certainly do seem to be.

Preezy wrote:I saw that Vermilion ;)


lol, ok, well i deleted because i suddenly realised i'd missed several pages of discussion and wanted to catch up first.

OrangeRakoon wrote:Even the Cornish would probably be unhappy


Don't upset the Cornish, otherwise they'll be sending the Ooh Arr A after you.

still wrote:Certainly not this country which I no longer recognise as somewhere I belong.


So you used to, but not anymore? Why do you think that? I'm curious as to your reasons for this.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by OrangeRKN » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:38 pm

Moggy wrote:My previous link gave you a supreme court ruling on whether it was optional (Jehovah’s Witnesses thought it was idolatry) and it is not.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of ... ontroversy

In 1940, the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case—Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry—could be compelled to swear the Pledge. In 1943, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court reversed its decision.


It seems the history of legal challenges to the pledge of allegiance is long and storied, but from a quick read I don't think you can be forced (although it does seem to happen anyway, hence the challenges)

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:45 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:
Moggy wrote:My previous link gave you a supreme court ruling on whether it was optional (Jehovah’s Witnesses thought it was idolatry) and it is not.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of ... ontroversy

In 1940, the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case—Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry—could be compelled to swear the Pledge. In 1943, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court reversed its decision.


It seems the history of legal challenges to the pledge of allegiance is long and storied, but from a quick read I don't think you can be forced (although it does seem to happen anyway, hence the challenges)


It appears I was wrong. Kids are not legally forced to pledge allegiance under federal law.

However, as OR says, they are basically forced to through peer pressure or evil nurses.

Earlier this month, a Pennsylvania middle school made headlines nationwide when a nurse allegedly refused to treat an eighth grade student who refused to recite the Pledge.

http://www.mtv.com/news/2136346/pledge- ... mandatory/


Plus at state level the laws can insist on kids reciting it.

Students are expected to speak the phrase "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. The consequences for omitting or amending this phrase are not legally determined and may vary depending upon the state or school board. According to an Aug. 2003 report by the Education Commission of the States, 43 states have laws regarding requirements for student recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in schools (as of Aug. 2003).

https://undergod.procon.org/view.additi ... eID=000074

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:50 pm

I thought I'd just posted this but it seems to have disappeared - Matrix dejavu?

Anyway - regardless of the legality of being forced to do the Pledge, I would imagine the social stigma of being the kid that chooses not to would be enough to force most people to just go along with it against their wishes.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Hyperion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:58 pm

I would have thought it would be akin to reciting the Cub Scout law or saying a prayer before school lunch (I'm sure we used to do this) and most kids just mumble through it to get it over with.
Who knows? We need some Americans

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:00 pm

I remember having to say a prayer before lunch when I spent 2 short years in a C of E school, I'd forgotten about that :lol:

Oh to be young again but with an adult brain...


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