Moggy wrote:jawafour wrote:I don't know the age that Americans start learning the pledge, but - barring my concern over the inclusion of the religious aspect - I don't see anything wrong with the remainder of the words. As I said before, I assume that kids are taught the meaning behind the words rather than just repeating them parrot-fashion. I accept that young kids are unlikely to grasp a great understanding until they are older.
Preschool. From age 3.
I find it bizarre that you cannot see the problem with forcing kids to swear a pledge of allegiance at three years old.
Moggy, you are focusing on the extremes rather than the gist of my point. Obviously I don't support forcing three year old kids to say things and, as per the points I've already posted, any subject needs to be explained to youngsters in a language and style that they can't understand. However, this is not the thrust of my discussion about the pledge as you well know.
Moggy wrote:If by "forcing" we're talking about discussing the meaning in a way suitable for children to have a basic understanding of then, yeah, I don't see there is too much wrong with it. As per my previously response, I agree that kids will understand more once they are older. I don't have any great desire to talk about the USA pledge for kids that young; and I feel that school-age children will start to develop a better understanding.
No Jawa, they are not “forcing” them, they are forcing them. My previous link gave you a supreme court ruling on whether it was optional (Jehovah’s Witnesses thought it was idolatry) and it is not.
It doesn’t matter if you don’t have any great desire to talk about it for kids that young, that’s the conversation we are having. We are talking about three year old children being forced to swear allegiance to a flag.
Well, I won't repeat myself again, so... please see my previous responses; just above and in previous posts.
Moggy wrote:Barring the religious aspect, I feel that the remainder of the script appears to be pretty reasonable.
And for those that don’t want to do it?
How I feel about the pledge has no bearing on how others should feel; I wouldn't presume to speak for them.
Moggy wrote:As I have said, based on my understanding - and barring the religious aspect - I do not feel that the rest of the pledge is "state brainwashing".
Oh, and yes, I agree with your assertion that I do tend to seek the positives out of situations. Conversely, would it be fair to say that you tend to seek out the negatives?
Forcing three year olds to pledge allegiance to the state is pretty much textbook brainwashing.
I don’t seek out the negatives, I am positive about most things. I take a dim view on brainwashing kids though.
I will not be rail-roaded by your usual approach of picking on an extreme extent of an argument and using that as a batterring ram to try and shut down an opinion in its entirety, Moggy. As I have already said, obviously I am not supporting three year olds being brainwashed.
Moggy wrote:That's an interesting question and one that I haven't really thought about. Barring the religious aspect, I can see the positive desire of a USA-style pledge. I suspect that one would never be devised that everyone would agree on, though.
We have been talking about this, you have been singing the pledges praises and you haven’t even considered if it would be a good idea for the UK? This is like your earlier argument that Preezy and myself ought to “fly the flag” while then admitting that you don’t fly a flag.
What positives do you feel comes from forcing three year olds to swear allegiance to a flag/country?
I have not been "singIng the praises" of the USA pledge; I have the opinion that aspects of it seems reasonable.
I had not considered whether the UK should have a similar pledge; upon being asked, I replied that I would be concerned about them religious aspect.
I did not suggest that Preezy or yourself should fly a Union flag.
I did not "admit" - as if that was a bad thing - that I don't fly a flag outside my home; I merely said that I don't have one and don't plan to.
Finally, how many times will you ask me about three year olds and the USA pledge? I'm not sure how many more ways I can't answer you.
You have tried this tack several times in political threads, Moggy. You will not accept that people can have differing opinions to yours, nor that there can be varying degrees of agreement. Not everything is black and white and, just because some people may hold certain beliefs or ideals that don't match your own, this does not mean that you have to try and highlight extreme examples as a broad brush for sweeping in some kind of perceived advantage in a discussion.