Re: Flag Appreciation Thread
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:08 pm
I think that America should go back to the original salute that was used for the pledge.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Rax wrote:...It was interpreted as a protest against the flag, the flag that stands for liberty, justice, god, and especially the military. Take away the pledge brainwashing them into loving the flag and maybe they would have seen the protest for what it was, a protest against the intitutional racism experienced by minorities in America...
Moggy wrote:What the hell does pledging allegiance to a flag mean?...
Drumstick wrote:Hyperion wrote:Drumstick wrote:In terms of flags I've always been quite partial to the Isle of Man variant.
And then you have the Sicily variant which is absolutely terrifying
That's wonderfully grotesque.
jawafour wrote:Moggy, it's perfectly acceptable that you could take that point of view for each aspect that you have picked out and, yes, it's right to question rather than follow unerringly. But could there not be a more positive side to each of the points that you made?
I would think that most countries would wish for a united people with freedom and justice.
Is it wrong to say that you wish for that; even if there are examples - past and current - where this has not been delivered?
And even if there is a longer journey to go on to reach that point of absolute equality?
I don't have experience of how people learn the pledge but I would hope that they learn and discuss the meanings behind it in a positive and open way.
The religious aspect is very awkward. Personally I would wish for an acceptance of all religions that aim for harmony and unity. Even so, I am unsure that the pledge should include religious content.
Moggy wrote:jawafour wrote:Moggy, it's perfectly acceptable that you could take that point of view for each aspect that you have picked out and, yes, it's right to question rather than follow unerringly. But could there not be a more positive side to each of the points that you made?
Could you tell me the positives of forcing preschool kids to pledge allegiance to a flag?
Moggy wrote:I would think that most countries would wish for a united people with freedom and justice.
I am sure they all would. Is forcing preschool kids to pledge allegiance to a flag the best way of doing that?
Moggy wrote:Is it wrong to say that you wish for that; even if there are examples - past and current - where this has not been delivered?
Who said it was wrong to wish for a united people with freedom and justice? The pledge of allegiance doesn't just do that though does it?
Moggy wrote:And even if there is a longer journey to go on to reach that point of absolute equality?
The pledge has been around for over 100 years. You'd have thought if it had any effect on freedom and justice that things like segregation and groups like the KKK would have been exterminated a little quicker...
Moggy wrote:I don't have experience of how people learn the pledge but I would hope that they learn and discuss the meanings behind it in a positive and open way.
I know you try and look at the positive in everything, but at best a preschool pledge is meaningless and at worst it is state brainwashing.
Moggy wrote:The religious aspect is very awkward. Personally I would wish for an acceptance of all religions that aim for harmony and unity. Even so, I am unsure that the pledge should include religious content.
Would you like to see a pledge introduced for the UK?
jawafour wrote:Rax wrote:...It was interpreted as a protest against the flag, the flag that stands for liberty, justice, god, and especially the military. Take away the pledge brainwashing them into loving the flag and maybe they would have seen the protest for what it was, a protest against the intitutional racism experienced by minorities in America...
As I said, Rax, I have no personal experience of the pledge. I can see that the religious aspect is uneasy (and I have looked into it to establish that this wording was added in later years - around the time of "communist fears" in the mid-twentieth century I believe) and, yes, I can see why this causes unease; especially for people who believe in another God(s). I'm not sure that the pledge promotes the military, racism or the persecution of minorities - the wording doesn't appear to but I am unfamiliar with how the pledge may be interpreted - or shared - by others.
Hyperion wrote:The pledge of allegiance is much better than our national anthem
jawafour wrote:I don't know the age that Americans start learning the pledge, but - barring my concern over the inclusion of the religious aspect - I don't see anything wrong with the remainder of the words. As I said before, I assume that kids are taught the meaning behind the words rather than just repeating them parrot-fashion. I accept that young kids are unlikely to grasp a great understanding until they are older.
If by "forcing" we're talking about discussing the meaning in a way suitable for children to have a basic understanding of then, yeah, I don't see there is too much wrong with it. As per my previously response, I agree that kids will understand more once they are older. I don't have any great desire to talk about the USA pledge for kids that young; and I feel that school-age children will start to develop a better understanding.
Barring the religious aspect, I feel that the remainder of the script appears to be pretty reasonable.
As I have said, based on my understanding - and barring the religious aspect - I do not feel that the rest of the pledge is "state brainwashing".
Oh, and yes, I agree with your assertion that I do tend to seek the positives out of situations. Conversely, would it be fair to say that you tend to seek out the negatives?
That's an interesting question and one that I haven't really thought about. Barring the religious aspect, I can see the positive desire of a USA-style pledge. I suspect that one would never be devised that everyone would agree on, though.
still wrote:Hyperion wrote:The pledge of allegiance is much better than our national anthem
I don't sing that either.
Preezy wrote:Maybe I'm overthinking it.
Preezy wrote:I saw that Vermilion
OrangeRakoon wrote:Even the Cornish would probably be unhappy
still wrote:Certainly not this country which I no longer recognise as somewhere I belong.
Moggy wrote:My previous link gave you a supreme court ruling on whether it was optional (Jehovah’s Witnesses thought it was idolatry) and it is not.
In 1940, the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case—Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry—could be compelled to swear the Pledge. In 1943, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court reversed its decision.
OrangeRakoon wrote:Moggy wrote:My previous link gave you a supreme court ruling on whether it was optional (Jehovah’s Witnesses thought it was idolatry) and it is not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of ... ontroversyIn 1940, the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case—Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry—could be compelled to swear the Pledge. In 1943, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court reversed its decision.
It seems the history of legal challenges to the pledge of allegiance is long and storied, but from a quick read I don't think you can be forced (although it does seem to happen anyway, hence the challenges)
Earlier this month, a Pennsylvania middle school made headlines nationwide when a nurse allegedly refused to treat an eighth grade student who refused to recite the Pledge.
http://www.mtv.com/news/2136346/pledge- ... mandatory/
Students are expected to speak the phrase "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. The consequences for omitting or amending this phrase are not legally determined and may vary depending upon the state or school board. According to an Aug. 2003 report by the Education Commission of the States, 43 states have laws regarding requirements for student recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in schools (as of Aug. 2003).
https://undergod.procon.org/view.additi ... eID=000074