Flag Appreciation Thread

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Vermilion
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Vermilion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:13 pm

Preezy wrote:I remember having to say a prayer before lunch when I spent 2 short years in a C of E school, I'd forgotten about that :lol:

Oh to be young again but with an adult brain...


I attended a CofE primary school, the whole school would have hymn practice assembly every tuesday morning.

Sometimes between the songs, a kid would get hiccups, or fart very loudly causing much commotion, i recall when one even projectile vomited.

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Hyperion
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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Hyperion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:28 pm

I wasn't even in a CofE primary, we definitely had hymns in assembly but I'm sure we had to recite something before lunch

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by OrangeRKN » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:32 pm

We sang hymns at primary school. Lord of the Dance was a banger

It was very infrequent at secondary school, but I was old enough then to have the conviction to not sing

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Earfolds » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:08 pm

My school had a school song that we used to sing occasionally besides the regular hymns. I found out a couple years back that a school in Nigeria stole our song, which was interesting.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Lorn64 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:38 pm

Vermilion wrote:Sometimes between the songs, a kid would get hiccups, or fart very loudly causing much commotion, i recall when one even projectile vomited.

Lmao.

They used to have us praying and singing during assembly in Primary School as well. It wasn't all hymns, though... I remember we also had a "school song" and no word of a lie, they used to make us sing Yellow Submarine. :lol:

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:02 pm

Moggy wrote:
jawafour wrote:I don't know the age that Americans start learning the pledge, but - barring my concern over the inclusion of the religious aspect - I don't see anything wrong with the remainder of the words. As I said before, I assume that kids are taught the meaning behind the words rather than just repeating them parrot-fashion. I accept that young kids are unlikely to grasp a great understanding until they are older.


Preschool. From age 3.

I find it bizarre that you cannot see the problem with forcing kids to swear a pledge of allegiance at three years old.

Moggy, you are focusing on the extremes rather than the gist of my point. Obviously I don't support forcing three year old kids to say things and, as per the points I've already posted, any subject needs to be explained to youngsters in a language and style that they can't understand. However, this is not the thrust of my discussion about the pledge as you well know.

Moggy wrote:
If by "forcing" we're talking about discussing the meaning in a way suitable for children to have a basic understanding of then, yeah, I don't see there is too much wrong with it. As per my previously response, I agree that kids will understand more once they are older. I don't have any great desire to talk about the USA pledge for kids that young; and I feel that school-age children will start to develop a better understanding.


No Jawa, they are not “forcing” them, they are forcing them. My previous link gave you a supreme court ruling on whether it was optional (Jehovah’s Witnesses thought it was idolatry) and it is not.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t have any great desire to talk about it for kids that young, that’s the conversation we are having. We are talking about three year old children being forced to swear allegiance to a flag.

Well, I won't repeat myself again, so... please see my previous responses; just above and in previous posts.

Moggy wrote:
Barring the religious aspect, I feel that the remainder of the script appears to be pretty reasonable.


And for those that don’t want to do it?

How I feel about the pledge has no bearing on how others should feel; I wouldn't presume to speak for them.

Moggy wrote:
As I have said, based on my understanding - and barring the religious aspect - I do not feel that the rest of the pledge is "state brainwashing".

Oh, and yes, I agree with your assertion that I do tend to seek the positives out of situations. Conversely, would it be fair to say that you tend to seek out the negatives?


Forcing three year olds to pledge allegiance to the state is pretty much textbook brainwashing.

I don’t seek out the negatives, I am positive about most things. I take a dim view on brainwashing kids though.

I will not be rail-roaded by your usual approach of picking on an extreme extent of an argument and using that as a batterring ram to try and shut down an opinion in its entirety, Moggy. As I have already said, obviously I am not supporting three year olds being brainwashed.

Moggy wrote:
That's an interesting question and one that I haven't really thought about. Barring the religious aspect, I can see the positive desire of a USA-style pledge. I suspect that one would never be devised that everyone would agree on, though.


We have been talking about this, you have been singing the pledges praises and you haven’t even considered if it would be a good idea for the UK? This is like your earlier argument that Preezy and myself ought to “fly the flag” while then admitting that you don’t fly a flag. :lol:

What positives do you feel comes from forcing three year olds to swear allegiance to a flag/country?

I have not been "singIng the praises" of the USA pledge; I have the opinion that aspects of it seems reasonable.
I had not considered whether the UK should have a similar pledge; upon being asked, I replied that I would be concerned about them religious aspect.
I did not suggest that Preezy or yourself should fly a Union flag.
I did not "admit" - as if that was a bad thing - that I don't fly a flag outside my home; I merely said that I don't have one and don't plan to.
Finally, how many times will you ask me about three year olds and the USA pledge? I'm not sure how many more ways I can't answer you.

You have tried this tack several times in political threads, Moggy. You will not accept that people can have differing opinions to yours, nor that there can be varying degrees of agreement. Not everything is black and white and, just because some people may hold certain beliefs or ideals that don't match your own, this does not mean that you have to try and highlight extreme examples as a broad brush for sweeping in some kind of perceived advantage in a discussion.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:12 pm

You accuse me of using an extreme example but then go on to say that I am unable to accept differing opinions?

Jawa, I disagree with the idea of a pledge of allegiance. You don’t. See I accept that. No discussion can take place unless we question each other though.

My example of 3 years old having to do it is not an extreme example, it’s what happens on a daily basis across the USA.

Finally, what I find exhausting in discussions with you is how you constantly try and turn any discussion into an attack on yourself. You recently had to apologise after incorrectly saying I was threatening towards you, you join in debates but refuse to get off the fence, you accuse others of posting extremes.

I like you Jawa, you’re a great guy, but you need to realise that political debates will get heated. They shouldn’t be nasty or violent, but they will be heated. If you want to join in then that’s great, but it’s a waste of time if you are just going to get your feelings hurt every time somebody disagrees with you.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:15 pm

fight fight fight fight

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:16 pm

Preezy wrote:fight fight fight fight


:lol:

I could never fight Jawa, he’s a wonderful chap. I just think he’s too sensitive on some issues.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Jenuall » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:22 pm

The difficulty with something like the American pledge of allegiance is that the act itself can, from certain perspectives, seem fairly innocent - "hey we're just getting kids to get behind what are pretty solid, relatable social goals (minus the controversial God bit)!"

But you are subtly drip feeding the indoctrination of generations of individuals that has made things like ejecting Trump a reality as people believe it's a move back toward those same goals they spent their childhood pledging allegiance to!

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Hyperion » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:24 pm

Of course Paraguay's flag is cool in that it has a different front and reverse

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:25 pm

Hyperion wrote:Of course Paraguay's flag is cool in that it has a different front and reverse

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That’s cool, fair play to Paraguay for putting extra effort in!

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:07 pm

Moggy wrote:You accuse me of using an extreme example but then go on to say that I am unable to accept differing opinions?

Jawa, I disagree with the idea of a pledge of allegiance. You don’t. See I accept that. No discussion can take place unless we question each other though.

My example of 3 years old having to do it is not an extreme example, it’s what happens on a daily basis across the USA.

Finally, what I find exhausting in discussions with you is how you constantly try and turn any discussion into an attack on yourself. You recently had to apologise after incorrectly saying I was threatening towards you, you join in debates but refuse to get off the fence, you accuse others of posting extremes.

I like you Jawa, you’re a great guy, but you need to realise that political debates will get heated. They shouldn’t be nasty or violent, but they will be heated. If you want to join in then that’s great, but it’s a waste of time if you are just going to get your feelings hurt every time somebody disagrees with you.

Moggy, the political threads are not your personal arena; your views and ideas are no more or less worthy than those of others. In my previous post I was clear in refuting several points that you raised against my views and now you have changed tack to a "don't get upset" approach. You often push things to the limit - the absolute boundaries - with your discussions in these political threads and, as the threads are very lightly regulated, you sail through. Sure, things can and do get heated... and you are often at the centre of that heat. The thing that I do find most frustrating is your picking upon extreme aspects and getting the focus on them whilst deterring eyes away from someone's main points. The headlines will be something along the lines of "Jawa supports brainwashing three year olds" whilst the real story is "Jawa can some some good aspects in the USA pledge". There are grey areas - "the middle ground" - in discussions and yet you rail at the extremes to a point of antagonism.

I feel certain that you will now look back over my previous posts to pick out something else to divert attention to. The reason I deleted all (most) of my previous comments in the Brexit thread was because I feared that my words would be twisted to present an image of me on the forum that just wasn't true.

I shan't delete my comments from this thread because - hopefully - there is nothing that could be presented in a way that I did not intend; well, not beyond the "Jawa wants children to be brainwashed" story that has already been pitched, anyway. You railroaded me out of other political threads but you shan't in this one.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:23 pm

Whatever Jawa, you are free to have your views and can misrepresent me anyway you like. I’m not going to argue anymore when things start getting this personal.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:36 pm

Moggy wrote:Whatever Jawa, you are free to have your views and can misrepresent me anyway you like. I’m not going to argue anymore when things start getting this personal.

Moggy, don't play this one on me - you made this personal with the "hurt feelings" aspect and focusing on stuff like that rather than my responses to your - many - questions. As for "misrepresentation", I think most folk reading our past few interactions wil see who is being misrepresented.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:40 pm

jawafour wrote:
Moggy wrote:Whatever Jawa, you are free to have your views and can misrepresent me anyway you like. I’m not going to argue anymore when things start getting this personal.

Moggy, don't play this one on me - you made this personal with the "hurt feelings" aspect and focusing on stuff like that rather than my responses to your - many - questions. As for "misrepresentation", I think most folk reading our past few interactions wil see who is being misrepresented.


Jawa you started getting personal with your post on me posting extreme views and being unable to see other people’s point of view.

I don’t mind, I’ve got thick skin. But if we carry on like this we will fall out and I don’t want that.

Call it quits mate, it’s a petty discussion, it’s not a reason for us to have a big argument.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by jawafour » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:46 pm

Moggy, you have given more than as good as as you've gotten in this discussion. I am not gonna sit back and let you tarnish me.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Moggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:50 pm

jawafour wrote:Moggy, you have given more than as good as as you've gotten in this discussion. I am not gonna sit back and let you tarnish me.


I’ve not tried to tarnish you, I honestly think there is something lost in translation here. I’m confused as to why you would think that.

As I said, I like you, I don’t want to fall out with you and so it’s best to leave it here. I’m not replying again, this is going too far.

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:53 pm

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PostRe: Flag Appreciation Thread
by Karl » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:53 pm

Moggy wrote:.
jawafour wrote:.

It's my official opinion as a Moderator (whatever that means) that neither of you have egregiously insulted the other, and that it is therefore totally bizarre that hurt feelings have arisen from this debate. Nothing in the above was worth taking personally.

I'm gonna ask you both to take a step back and calm down. If you want to vent, if you think I've missed something, if you think I'm being unfair here -- PM me and I'll chat to you about it. But please don't either of you post here and drag this on. You're both fundamentally nice chaps so let's move past this.


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