GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion

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Qikz
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PostGRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Qikz » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:56 pm

I'll fill out this post more as time goes on, but for now I just want to explain one of my rules with Drumstick.

6. No editing of your posts, if you are a repeat offender you will be removed from the game.


Now, one of the biggest problems I've always had with games run on the forum is the ability to PM people. I find it a) removes any reason to chat in the thread after a certain point, b) makes protector roles far too powerful and c) makes it far too difficult for the Mafia to try and ever out anyone, because by about day 2 people already have their little PM groups.

In my game I decided to make it a rule that PMing is not allowed unless your role explicitly says you can do so. So far, that's been limited to the Jailor (although the PM goes through me so the Jailor can be anonymous) and the Mafia roles, or it'd make it impossible for the bad guys. This is the main reason I have the edit rule in place.

Take this situation for example. It's 7PM, someone is up in the dockett and is being asked to claim his role/prove it in order to be proven innocent. Say for instance there's one member of the town (say the Jailor who has outed himself and proven it, then was protected) who everybody trusts, then the only person the person in the dockett needs to prove to is the Jailor, since everyone else will vote with them.

Now the issue arises with if the Jailor and the other player could arrange it somehow in the thread, for the person to out their role and their results for a 10 second or so window, then edit it out it makes it entirely unfair on the other players (especially the bad guys) if they just so happened to not be there at the time of the posting. It then removes any evidence from the actual thread and effectively acts as a PM between the two players.

Now admittedly, it could just be an edit to correct a typo, but after the fact how is anyone supposed to know that?

Another situation to consider is something like what happened with Mini E in the last game. He posted his kill PM in to the thread by accident. Now had he been quick enough and edited it, nobody would've had any clue that he'd made a mistake and he would've gotten away with it scott free. Admittedly that was his first edit, so I let him off with a warning, but still. Say for example a mafia member accidentally outs themselves in the thread, but then edits out the fact so nobody can prove they said it. Is that fair? Not really, a mistake is a mistake.

The rule is there to make people think about what they're posting as well as stop people from "PMing" in the thread. Nobody cares if the grammar is perfect and if there's a typo, it really doesn't matter. People need to be held accountable for mistakes they've made and also if someone tries to break one of the rules by editing, it means they can't as the edit is another rule that they'd be breaking.

I stand by my 3 strike rule for edits and I believe until now it's worked pretty well. There's only been one or two people who've really had an issue with it and I think (especially in your case Drumstick) it was more you worrying about typos than anything else.

drumstick wrote:
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Qikz » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:06 pm

Drumstick wrote:
Nun wrote:No worries, to be completely honest i'm surprised you didn't just execute me outright on that night after i'd claimed BG. Though I suppose I didn't actually see i'd been jailed to send a reply till 10 mins from the end of the phase.

I had an early night that evening and didn't see the response from Qikz until the morning so I didn't have the chance. Once I woke up and saw the response I obviously knew something was up unless there were two BGs (very unlikely) and it took me a little while to piece together what I felt was the most likely scenario.

Thanks for the repsonses regarding the cleaner, that makes sense.

strawberry floating hell at Godfather role, no wonder it's been confusing the strawberry float out of me.

New suggestion for Qikz:

Do not publicise what roles are in the game, but do have an explanation for every role somewhere in the OP that exists in your "Mafiasphere" that might be included in any random game. That way everyone is on a level playing field in terms of how each role works and what might be included in the game, as opposed to including a bunch of roles some people have never heard of without any notice of what they are.


That's what I'm planning to do in the main signup thread. I'll have a description of every role and what they do, but randomise which roles will appear in the games.
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Oblomov Boblomov
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Oblomov Boblomov » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:38 pm

Was the two transporter situation caused by having completely uncontrolled randomisation?

I really like the idea of random roles, but for future games I'd probably suggest taking them out of the pool if they've already been picked.

I also miss the standard villager role. I get why you don't include them, but I think it leaves a hole. Just a shame that you can guarantee some dickheads won't bother playing if they don't get a special role :fp:.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Qikz » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:40 pm

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:Was the two transporter situation caused by having completely uncontrolled randomisation?

I really like the idea of random roles, but for future games I'd probably suggest taking them out of the pool if they've already been picked.

I also miss the standard villager role. I get why you don't include them, but I think it leaves a hole. Just a shame that you can guarantee some dickheads won't bother playing if they don't get a special role :fp:.


Honestly, the only reason I don't have a normal villager role is they're boring and if you're stuck as one, it really isn't fun to play. You've literally have nothing to do than to wait for someone with a role to tell you who to vote for.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Hexx » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:46 pm

They can be boring - but it means you have to play the thread, and deduct things.

They also help give some better hiding" spots for Mafia - the last 2 it's been effectively impossible to hide very very quickly.

Edit - Totally fine with the no edit/delete rule. It can be a pain, makes all sorts of typos and people forget, but it keeps everything open/consistent and everyone sees the same content/evidence. Important in a logic based game.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Oblomov Boblomov » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:50 pm

I enjoy being a normal villager. You can talk gooseberry fool all you want, be the spokesperson for an organised group, act without conflict of interest or any real concern. Regular villagers make for the best MVPs!

I just thought about the randomisation thing and if we know there's only one per game it really sucks for the Mafia when the role call comes into play. Maybe it is best if it's possible for there to be more than one of everything.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Oblomov Boblomov » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:54 pm

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:I just thought about the randomisation thing and if we know there's only one per game it really sucks for the Mafia when the role call comes into play. Maybe it is best if it's possible for there to be more than one of everything.

Having said that, this wouldn't be a problem if there were regular villagers...
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Qikz » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:55 pm

Hexx, I understand where you're coming from, but as someone who's probably played about 300-500 games in this format, I think it's just people are unaware how to hide in a game like this. I think that will come to you all in time with experience.

If anything, the usual villager role only makes it easier for the Godfather to hide.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Qikz » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:02 pm

I just thought about the randomisation thing and if we know there's only one per game it really sucks for the Mafia when the role call comes into play. Maybe it is best if it's possible for there to be more than one of everything.


The whole point of randomisation is that there can be multiple of each role. The thing is you need to try and claim the right role. It's very hard to prove you're not a BG or Lookout for instance.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Pancake » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:19 pm

Qikz wrote:
I just thought about the randomisation thing and if we know there's only one per game it really sucks for the Mafia when the role call comes into play. Maybe it is best if it's possible for there to be more than one of everything.


The whole point of randomisation is that there can be multiple of each role. The thing is you need to try and claim the right role. It's very hard to prove you're not a BG or Lookout for instance.

The flip side is that anyone claiming to be a BG or Lookout (see Nun and me in the last game) can seem suspicious as it is quite conveniently difficult to prove. It's about timing on that front I guess! Had I claimed Lookout as soon as Drummy had demanded a role call, I may have got away with it, although a Transporter can very easily muck with a Lookout!
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Drumstick » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:46 pm

I disagree about the point made noting that bog standard villagers are pointless and boring and I think this serves a greater point I’ve been mulling over. I kind of feel that everyone having a role is a bit overkill, obviously if you are running a game of only 16 players then the fewer numbers than our standard grand GR game makes this possible, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessary. The people that sign up and then basically stop playing once they get a Villager role is annoying, but obviously those people don’t have the appetite for the game. I can see why in this format one might opt to fill the game with roles to get people engaged but I think there is a place for the neutral villagers because they can have a massive effect on the game, but it’s all down to the player. It is nothing to do with the role, it’s just means the player has to work harder to make inroads. It also provides a little more hiding space for the Mafia where at present there has been none.

The problem with the no PM rule means that this is kind of impossible for the Villager to do in this format which is why I’d like to see the no PM rule abolished. But it’s your game and you’ve got to do what you think is best and what you think people will have the most fun with. FWIW I’ve really enjoyed the first two games.

Lastly I would recommend avoiding roles like the Transporter and I am not a fan of “redirective” roles on the whole. It’s just too confusing in the short term.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Moggy » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:15 pm

One of the main problems with the "no PM" rule is that it is impossible to enforce. How the hell would SD (or whoever is running a game) know if people were PMing or not?

Any future game also needs to be far less picky about things. Things like:

It was damn obvious we wanted Hexx lynched, why be so fussy about the format of the posts (especially when it was so confusing anyway!)?

Where did the rule of getting a majority for the lynch suddenly come from anyway?

If you set a time of 11pm for the night phase to end, don't be so anal about "well actually I have to start the day phase before it counts as the end of the night phase". Such things lead to bad feelings when somebody makes an honest mistake due to your own poor time keeping and a hollow victory for whatever team wins.

Thanks for running it SD and I appreciate it is a difficult thing to run, but the game was effectively ruined by your analness.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Hexx » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:34 pm

Moggy wrote:One of the main problems with the "no PM" rule is that it is impossible to enforce. How the hell would SD (or whoever is running a game) know if people were PMing or not?

Any future game also needs to be far less picky about things. Things like:

It was damn obvious we wanted Hexx lynched, why be so fussy about the format of the posts (especially when it was so confusing anyway!)?

Where did the rule of getting a majority for the lynch suddenly come from anyway?

If you set a time of 11pm for the night phase to end, don't be so anal about "well actually I have to start the day phase before it counts as the end of the night phase". Such things lead to bad feelings when somebody makes an honest mistake due to your own poor time keeping and a hollow victory for whatever team wins.

Thanks for running it SD and I appreciate it is a difficult thing to run, but the game was effectively ruined by your analness.


Still a victory :P

Rules are quite hard I get - one idea Mafia team floats was to use out 4 votes to try and "snipe lynch" at 7.59 if we go one other person to vote another way. The 5/9 (even though people can change votes) triggering the next phase threw us (I'd rather this didn't happen in future - I get it's a majority but people can and do change minds up to deadline)

If the intent is clear I'd count it. It also can make things more convoluted. e.g. "Lynch Mogy". Did I make an innocent mistake or a typo to let Moggy off but present/pretend I wanted him lynched.

But yeah I genuinely was trying to make Qikz kill me post that non-ynch as I thought you should have had it. (The Mafia PM thread was basically just "Shall we quit?"). I even PMed Qikz.

It never occurred to me just to Nightpost for a god kill. I'm such a goodytooshoes I didn't think to break the rules :slol:
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Qikz » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:37 pm

Ok. After work im going to put up a new set of rules for you all to scrutinise. I will not be removing the no posting im night phase or pm rule however. They will be staying.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Moggy » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:38 pm

Hexx wrote:
Moggy wrote:One of the main problems with the "no PM" rule is that it is impossible to enforce. How the hell would SD (or whoever is running a game) know if people were PMing or not?

Any future game also needs to be far less picky about things. Things like:

It was damn obvious we wanted Hexx lynched, why be so fussy about the format of the posts (especially when it was so confusing anyway!)?

Where did the rule of getting a majority for the lynch suddenly come from anyway?

If you set a time of 11pm for the night phase to end, don't be so anal about "well actually I have to start the day phase before it counts as the end of the night phase". Such things lead to bad feelings when somebody makes an honest mistake due to your own poor time keeping and a hollow victory for whatever team wins.

Thanks for running it SD and I appreciate it is a difficult thing to run, but the game was effectively ruined by your analness.


Still a victory :P

Rules are quite hard I get - one idea Mafia team floats was to use out 4 votes to try and "snipe lynch" at 7.59 if we go one other person to vote another way. The 5/9 (even though people can change votes) triggering the next phase threw us (I'd rather this didn't happen in future - I get it's a majority but people can and do change minds up to deadline)

If the intent is clear I'd count it. It also can make things more convoluted. e.g. "Lynch Mogy". Did I make an innocent mistake or a typo to let Moggy off but present/pretend I wanted him lynched.

But yeah I genuinely was trying to make Qikz kill me post that non-ynch as I thought you should have had it. (The Mafia PM thread was basically just "Shall we quit?"). I even PMed Qikz.

It never occurred to me just to Nightpost for a god kill. I'm such a goodytooshoes I didn't think to break the rules :slol:


This isn’t sour grapes from me (well your strawberry floated up lynching is!) as I was already dead at that stage and there should be no victory in death (although SD seems to have changed that rule as well). I was a loser whether my team managed to win or not.

I wouldn’t be happy with “winning” like that though.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Moggy » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:39 pm

Qikz wrote:Ok. After work im going to put up a new set of rules for you all to scrutinise. I will not be removing the no posting im night phase or pm rule however. They will be staying.


It's your game dude, the rules are up to you. No matter how much we think they are bullshit. ;)
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Hexx » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:41 pm

Moggy wrote:This isn’t sour grapes from me (well your strawberry floated up lynching is!) as I was already dead at that stage and there should be no victory in death (although SD seems to have changed that rule as well). I was a loser whether my team managed to win or not.

I wouldn’t be happy with “winning” like that though.


I didn't mean to say it was. I think the whole thing is slightly funny in a farce sort of way.

It's joking preening about our impressive and massive victory we totally and utterly deserved :P
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Moggy » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:53 pm

Hexx wrote:
Moggy wrote:This isn’t sour grapes from me (well your strawberry floated up lynching is!) as I was already dead at that stage and there should be no victory in death (although SD seems to have changed that rule as well). I was a loser whether my team managed to win or not.

I wouldn’t be happy with “winning” like that though.


I didn't mean to say it was. I think the whole thing is slightly funny in a farce sort of way.

It's joking preening about our impressive and massive victory we totally and utterly deserved :P


Oh I know that, it’s just criticising things when you have lost can just look like somebody being a bad loser.

You died before the end of the game though, so really you are just as much a loser as the rest of us.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Nun » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:05 pm

I think what you might want to consider are some more passive village roles which aren't totally vanilla but also are not as extremely powerful as stacking the village with the traditional power roles.

Stuff like:
Double Voter (Lynch vote counts for two),
Commuter (Can leave the village once during the game at night to avoid all actions targeting them),
Mayor (Can overrule one lynch vote)
Insomniac (Can see who targeted them at night but not what they were targeted with)
Lovers/Masons (Know each other are innocent, dies when the other lover dies. Probably wouldn't include these unless that game gets up above 20ish people though).

Are just a couple of examples I've used when hosting to get around the problem of people not wanting to play vanilla roles but the village being too strong if you only stack the power roles.

One of the ideas I liked most to get around this was some of the AYA games which had exploration phases of sorts that allow vanilla villagers the chance to gain powers if they're active which is kind of fun. Though obviously that doesn't really fit with the style of games you're going for here.

Also ditch Jester and Survivor as role for neutrals, they literally give the player no incentive to be active or include themselves in the game in any way.
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PostRe: GRcade Mafia | Rules & Future Game Discussion
by Hexx » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:10 pm

Moggy wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Moggy wrote:This isn’t sour grapes from me (well your strawberry floated up lynching is!) as I was already dead at that stage and there should be no victory in death (although SD seems to have changed that rule as well). I was a loser whether my team managed to win or not.

I wouldn’t be happy with “winning” like that though.


I didn't mean to say it was. I think the whole thing is slightly funny in a farce sort of way.

It's joking preening about our impressive and massive victory we totally and utterly deserved :P


Oh I know that, it’s just criticising things when you have lost can just look like somebody being a bad loser.

You died before the end of the game though, so really you are just as much a loser as the rest of us.


According the rules (although Townies seem to have a big problem following them :D) I'm as much as winner as...well...not you :P

A totally deserving and awesome bigly winner.

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