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Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:57 pm
by Benji Dude
Agent47 wrote:Benji Dude wrote:Agent47 wrote:I cannot understand why more developers are using the U3 engine when the Source engine is miles ahead.
Because UE3 chucks around gooseberry fool loads of polys for breakfast while Source only handles large mounds of polys. Don't get me wrong I agree with you in that the source engine is a great piece of kit, hell I used it for my Masters dissertation but when it comes to raw processing power UE3 will win hands down I think.
Just seems to me that Source is more versatile, whereas UE3 tends to have framerate issues when not applied properly - Source is far more scaleable, lending itself better to different projects and different systems.
I honestly don't know too much about the technical side of things though, I'm going off personal experience and reading various developer opinions on the different engines.
Yeah UE3 can be a bit of a pig to work with, but it's far more widely known and so has more pulling power. You talk to "game-store-grunt-A" about the unreal engine and he'll know what you're talking about (to a degree) start talking about the source engine and you'll be asked what game has used it.
It's a shame and I agree with you that Source is far more versatile, especially when they brought out the foliage for EP2 but there's not much you can do against sheer brand power.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:25 am
by cooldawn
Half-Life 3 or Episode 3...either would do. Come on Valve...get your Source out!
Oh, and by the way, I really like Source.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:26 am
by Agent47
Benji Dude wrote:Agent47 wrote:Benji Dude wrote:Agent47 wrote:I cannot understand why more developers are using the U3 engine when the Source engine is miles ahead.
Because UE3 chucks around gooseberry fool loads of polys for breakfast while Source only handles large mounds of polys. Don't get me wrong I agree with you in that the source engine is a great piece of kit, hell I used it for my Masters dissertation but when it comes to raw processing power UE3 will win hands down I think.
Just seems to me that Source is more versatile, whereas UE3 tends to have framerate issues when not applied properly - Source is far more scaleable, lending itself better to different projects and different systems.
I honestly don't know too much about the technical side of things though, I'm going off personal experience and reading various developer opinions on the different engines.
Yeah UE3 can be a bit of a pig to work with, but it's far more widely known and so has more pulling power. You talk to "game-store-grunt-A" about the unreal engine and he'll know what you're talking about (to a degree) start talking about the source engine and you'll be asked what game has used it.
It's a shame and I agree with you that Source is far more versatile, especially when they brought out the foliage for EP2 but there's not much you can do against sheer brand power.
Agreed - goes to show what happens when you get Microsoft behind something. It doesn't matter if it's gooseberry fool or not*, it will push the power of the brand skyward.
*Disclaimer: I'm not actually saying that UE3 is gooseberry fool here, just that it wouldn't matter either way once MS backs it.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:22 pm
by Extralife
I like Source too. Brown source, tomato source, barbecue source, it's all good.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:37 pm
by $ilva $hadow
You guys are on crack. I would much rather see Unreal Engine based games than Source based games. Unreal Engine looks miles better. The reason Source is so great and optimised for the PC is because Valve have been working with Source over the course of many games. The only thing Epic have done with unreal Engine is Gears 1, 2 and UT3. They could optimise Unreal Engine to work just as well as Source engine and do all that Source does if they were in the business of making games on the same engine for a long long time.
PC devs also don't all use the Source for a reason, it's a bit of a bitch to work with.
The Source SDK tools are criticised for being outdated and difficult to use.[34] A large number of the tools, including those for texture and model compilation, require varying levels of text-editor scripting from the user before they are executed at the command line with sometimes quite lengthy console commands.[35] This obtuseness was cited by the University of London when they moved their exploration of professional architectural visualisation in computer games to Bethesda Softworks' Gamebryo-based Oblivion engine after a brief period with Source.[36] Third-party tools provide GUIs,[37] but are not supported by Valve.
Valve's Hammer Editor's, the SDK's world-creation tool, interface has not changed significantly since its initial release for GoldSrc and the original Half-Life in 1998.
Before the Valve Developer Community Wiki was opened the SDK's user documentation was limited.[38]
[edit] Programming
Unlike most modern game engines, Source requires all program code to be written in C++. This is in particular contrast with the Unreal engine and its UnrealScript language that allows code to be written in discrete Mutator units that can be distributed piecemeal. The closest Source comes to this is server plug-ins in multiplayer games that must be installed by administrators -- aside from those, even the smallest change to a game's behaviour requires source code access and the creation of a different and quite possibly incompatible version of the game's binaries.
In response to this, several Source engine games and mods (including Garry's Mod, Fortress Forever and Smod) have implemented the Lua scripting language. These implementations are not available in either the consumer or licensee SDKs however, and as a result the development communities each have formed (which include entire games and mods running or being developed inside them) cannot migrate to the Source engine in general.
Despite Epic being so huge, they don't have the same work ethos as Valve, but if they did, UT3 engine would be even better than it already is. Unreal engine > Source any day. I would love to see Left 4 Dead and other valve games on a different engine. UT3 engine is amazingly scalable too. It's newer technology so we're sure to see optimisations coming over the next few years should Epic carry on making games with their engine.
Success of UT3 engine has nothing to do with Microsoft. UT3 engine stands on its own legs, no developer in their right mind would bother to license the source engine if UT3 engine didn't exist. Developers that have used the Source engine have made games that have more issues than developers who used UT3 engine for the first time. Dark Messiah and Vampire Bloodlines are buggy as strawberry float.
Edit: You should look at the difference between Gears on the 360 and T.O.B. Both are on locked off platform, they're both made by the developers of the proprietary engines, and one clearly looks more amazing than the other. And on the PC UT3 engine is incredibly scalable, you'll be amazed to see what low specs you can run UT3 on.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:46 pm
by Agent47
The Unreal Engine looks better on the surface, but I've yet to see it convey any sense of realism in terms of facial animation and such so far - not even close to what Source has provided.
And Source hard to work with? In all the years since its inception, I've never heard that complaint before now. In fact, all the comments I've heard over those years were exactly the opposite.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:55 pm
by $ilva $hadow
You not read any of the stuff I quoted? They're well known within the PC community. Valve are just incredibly awesome that no one would complain. They set the standard for what their engine can do, yet no third party can even match it. You take Unreal 3.0 though and look at third parties success with it despite having some rough edges, Lost Odyssey, Last Remnant, Bioshock, Mass Effect.
Like I said, Valve have had their engine a lot longer than Epic has had UT3.0, it's newer tech that's constantly evolving. Gears facial animations and that are great, they may not match Source but only because Epic don't really care for that, they have a different work ethic, they didn't make Gears to be emotionally involving in the same way Valve have crafted their facial animations. You should see how stupid facial animations from other developers using Source engine, they look gooseberry fool and ridiculous.
Unreal Engine is capable of amazing things, Epic are still updating their engine, they haven't even bothered focusing on facial animations as much as Valve have. Valve had a reason to craft that area, and that's you to wanna shag the hell out of Alyx. I would argue that Mass Effect has amazing facial animations and that's based on Unreal tech.
I've yet to see Source engine convey any sense of realism as well, Half Life games feel damn lifeless. Unreal engine games have a bit of soul at least, I don't feel like a floating camera.
I doubt you've played many of the source based games made from devs other than Valve to realise how much of a pain in the arse it actually is to work with compared to Unreal engine. It took years of fan made patches to bring Vampire Bloodlines up to an acceptable state.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:03 pm
by Agent47
You realise all I said was I've never heard these complaints
before now, right?
Though to be fair, as good as all those non-Epic UE3 games
looked, not a single one ran like Epic's games. But yes Vampire was awful on Source, but Dark Messiah is fine - a few niggles aside.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:07 pm
by $ilva $hadow
Dark Messiah after patches is fine with a lot of niggles. I remember Cal going crazy over it.
There won't be a lot of criticism that you'll hear about Source engine.
As good as all those non epic UE3 games looked, the gulf between them and Gears is massively smaller than the gulf between Valve produced games compared to other Source based engines.
Source is great no doubt, its aged very gracefully because of the modular updates, but UE3 even in its infancy is amazing.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:14 pm
by $ilva $hadow
I'd love to read Benjis dissertation on Source engine btw. It's hard enough trying to find articles online about Source. I love reading about game engines and how they work.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 9:57 pm
by Benji Dude
$ilva $hadow wrote:I'd love to read Benjis dissertation on Source engine btw. It's hard enough trying to find articles online about Source. I love reading about game engines and how they work.
To be honest there isn't much in there about the engine, as the project was more a modelling and normal mapping exercise, using the source engine as a means to get the normal maps working in a real life bit of software.
But if you really want to read it, drop me a PM with your email and I'll send it your way (or at least a link to get it yourself).
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 9:27 am
by Songwriter
$ilva $hadow wrote:I've yet to see Source engine convey any sense of realism as well, Half Life games feel damn lifeless. Unreal engine games have a bit of soul at least, I don't feel like a floating camera.
Whaaaa?
Oh well. I love the feel of the Source games. No-one has done faces since.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:20 pm
by $ilva $hadow
The feel of the engine and the facial animations are two different things. I love the facial animations, they're fantastic and no one will dispute that at all. But the feel of the engine? You're a floating camera in Half Life 1 and 2. That's all it feels like. TF2 and Left 4 Dead feel much better than the Half Life games.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:54 pm
by Tafdolphin
$ilva $hadow wrote:The feel of the engine and the facial animations are two different things. I love the facial animations, they're fantastic and no one will dispute that at all. But the feel of the engine? You're a floating camera in Half Life 1 and 2. That's all it feels like. TF2 and Left 4 Dead feel much better than the Half Life games.
I disagree, but see where you're coming from. You are very...
apart from the cutscenes but I think that's entirely intentional. During the action, I can't think of many other games where you're so fully immersed.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:09 pm
by Photek
$ilva $hadow wrote:I would love to see Left 4 Dead and other valve games on a different engine. on.
you're on a roll man, first Halo3 being **** now this!
BOT:I expect to see at least a teaser for Ep3!
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 7:56 pm
by Agent47
It's definitely time we saw some form of in-game footage of Episode 3, given it's been a good year and a half since Episode 2 was released!
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:42 am
by cooldawn
Words can't describe how much I hate the strawberry floating UE3 engine. It's hidious.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 2:33 pm
by $ilva $hadow
Photek wrote:$ilva $hadow wrote:I would love to see Left 4 Dead and other valve games on a different engine. on.
you're on a roll man, first Halo3 being **** now this!
BOT:I expect to see at least a teaser for Ep3!
Damn, you're on a roll too. Stop making crap up. I said Halo 3 single player is gooseberry fool. It's got nothing on Halo 1 and 2. The multiplayer is fantastic but single player is not.
You've not made any convincing arguments on anything.
I would love to see L4D and other Valve games on another engine. That means I'd like to see what the next Valve engine will look like. I imagine it'd be a huge imrpovement over Source.
cooldawn wrote:Words can't describe how much I hate the strawberry floating UE3 engine. It's hidious.
Some developers just have gooseberry fool art design, but Lost Odyssey and Gears of War look fantastic and different at the same time. It's inevitable that you'll hate it after awhile since so many developers use it, but I dislike source for the very same reason that other devs just don't try with it and make a shitty looking game.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:14 pm
by That
$ilva $hadow wrote:but I dislike source for the very same reason that other devs just don't try with it and make a shitty looking game.
... Guh? What other devs have used Source? I can think of Dark Messiah and that was hardly
gooseberry fool.
Re: Half Life 2: Episode 3 Grab your officials whilst you can!
Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:53 pm
by TheTurnipKing
Unreal game usually, in my experience, look better.
Valve's engine however, is some kind of awesome contortionist, able to accommodate ridiculous twists, seemingly at will.