Happy St George's Day, everyone!

PsychicSykes wrote:I haven't seen a derailment this spectacular since Final Destination 3.

At first I was "meh I am happy to be English but don't really care"

And then when Photek came into the thread I turned into:

Photek wrote:I'm trying to find different ways to get views across though people.

It would probably help you get your views across if you didn’t start with posts like these:

Photek wrote:A very insignificant day in comparison to St Patricks Day which is celebrated world-wide but Indeed Happy St Georges Day Englanders.

Photek wrote:

Cal wrote:I love England's history

Leaving aside the genocide and murder of millions of women and children I presume.

Nothing wrong with my opening post and I put a winky in second.

Photek wrote:If I take the comedic route mods say im running away from the argument, if I engage in a discussion I get done for derailing.

But you're doing neither of these on this occasion. You're just wrong. Oliver Cromwell Day isn't a thing. Simple as.

Photek wrote:I'm trying to find different ways to get views across though people.

An unorthodox method, this, I'll give you that.

Photek wrote:people in here make up minds cos of how I express my opinions, I can't win

Let's not paint a picture of a man unjustly hard done by. You stated earlier in the thread that the only defence of England's history you ever came across when criticising our past was "everyone else was just as bad" despite this thread clearly proving otherwise, and then you dismissed the idea of England accepting its own negative past as "nonsense". In a thread about St George's Day surely you'd have expected this to sink like the proverbial balloon made of Pb?

Moggy wrote:

Photek wrote:I'm trying to find different ways to get views across though people.

It would probably help you get your views across if you didn’t start with posts like these:

Photek wrote:A very insignificant day in comparison to St Patricks Day which is celebrated world-wide but Indeed Happy St Georges Day Englanders.

Photek wrote:

Cal wrote:I love England's history

Leaving aside the genocide and murder of millions of women and children I presume.

Beat me to it

Photek wrote:Nothing wrong with my opening post and I put a winky in second.

The fact that you can't see why people reacted to your posts says a lot about you.

Cal wrote:

Falsey wrote:

Cal wrote:

Falsey wrote:Random question; does anyone else feel 'ashamed' about St Georges day or being English etc?

For me, St G and ENGERLUND just conjures up images of fat skinheads with bulldog tattoos, and I would never tell anyone I was English. If anyone asks, Im British. I have a few England footie shirts from a few years back, but I just cant wear them anymore without feeling embarrassed. I would never dream of wearing or displaying a St G cross.

The typical 'English' man: Fat, balding, gold sov ring, likes the England band at the footie, drives a Zafira or Focus, doesnt like them lot coming over 'ere and stealing our jobs.

Well your post reveals a lot about you, rather any notion of what English nationalism may or may not be. Personally, I think it's a travesty that anyone who celebrates 'Englishness' is immediately sneered at, if not accused of outright racism. Being proud of your country, wanting to celebrate all that's good about it is not some cardinal sin and it's not - as far as I know - against the law.

At a time when Scottish nationalism is rampant, as is Welsh nationalism, why is it such a social no-no to speak out for English nationalism? Why is Scottish nationalism, for instance, just fine and dandy, but English nationalism definitely not?

I didnt say anything about it being illegal or a cardinal sin - that speaks a lot about you

I just dont feel I have a lot to be proud of about being 'English'. (Full disclosure, my blood is 50% English, 50% Welsh).

I personally feel as though the image of a proud Englishman has been tarnished beyond repair by shameful ultra nationalists and self unaware idiots. And thats before we get started on what a weird thing it is to be a patriot anyway - you cant control where you were born, after all.

Can I ask what it is that you feel proud of about being English?

Just the 'Englishness' of it. Nothing to do with race or even patriotism. I love England's history and I've always been quietly happy that I was born an Englishman. I agree that English nationalism has been tarnished by morons, but that doesn't invalidate being proud of your country and wanting to celebrate it's heritage.

It's a shame that these days English nationalism is not permitted to speak its name at a time when both Scottish and Welsh nationalism are spoken about almost daily without a second thought and yet when we stop and analyse what is being spoken about we understand that both Scottish and Welsh nationalism are actually the politics of division. As far as I'm aware English nationalism is quite the opposite: a celebration of our role within the United Kingdom, just one part of a greater nation, and a wish to keep it so.

My dad is a proud Welshman, and my brother is proud of his Welsh roots. Im not that bothered. Ive never lived in Wales (although I hope to soon) and I think I am more English than I am anything else. I wouldnt say Im proud to be English, though.

I think this is a great place, all in all, but I dont feel any sense of pride about telling people thats where Im from. Im British if pushed to answer.

I think the reason its 'ok' for other UK nations to be openly proud is because they tend to have a history of being the oppressed, rather than the oppressors.

Photek wrote:Nothing wrong with my opening post and I put a winky in second.

You're an idiot.

Get it?

I guess so, but it's not like I can create an Anglo-Irish thread is it (I did a few years ago, it got blocked lol)

Oliver Cromwell has a statue at westminster amongst many others throughout England and is referred to as Lord Protector at Arms.

He was a child murderer...You'll not see a monument to a person like that in many countries.

Falsey wrote:I think the reason its 'ok' for other UK nations to be openly proud is because they tend to have a history of being the oppressed, rather than the oppressors.

I know what you mean, but national pride is many things to many people. I know folk who are proud of being Scottish and the role they play within the UK; I know folk who are proud of being Scottish because they're not English. I'm proud of being English - not of our 'monarch', national anthem, or colonial past, but of so many other things. Our welfare state. Our vast diversity and how well we integrate people from literally hundreds of other countries. Our heroes of '66 Our national parks, beaches and castles and wild hillsides. Our sometimes bizarre and inexplicable landmarks. The way our politicians have to refer to one another as 'my right honourable friend' even when they're at each other's throats.

PsychicSykes wrote:I haven't seen a derailment this spectacular since that one Final Destination film.

Photek wrote:

Corazon de Leon wrote:

Photek wrote:

Corazon de Leon wrote:

Photek wrote:I think English folk should celebrate St Georges Day and not feel ashamed because of the idiots, I do not think they should celebrate their history however, yes many countries are ashamed of the past but not many countries have Englands past.

Why shouldn't they celebrate their history? Remember the bad things, celebrate the good(if that's what you're into). The English have contributed a lot to the arts and sciences, should that be washed away because of the colonialist past? Which, I should note, Wales and Scotland were equally involved in at the time.

As Dan says, not many countries are as old as England. If you look at any area of the world you'll find atrocities carried out in the name of something, at some time, from the American attitude towards Native Americans to South American mass sacrifices to Genghis Kahn raping and pillaging his way across the Asian continent to Japanese experimentation on Chinese POWs to the Holocaust.

Rubbish argument, thread isn't national strawberry floating China Day or Japanese day, every time I bring up England's horrific history all I get is "everyone else was a bastard" it's a stupid argument, just face up to the atrocities the English committed and stop referencing others.

The point is that in a thread about being proud to be English you've said that English people shouldn't celebrate their history. The point I made is that other countries celebrate their history even with atrocious aspects of it - look at Belgium, Germany, USA(particularly the USA, actually) etc etc. Do you level the same criticism at them whenever they choose to celebrate their nationality?

To use an example - I believe your significant other is American. When she celebrates Independence Day(if she does), do you remind her that their country was built on the corpses of a thousand dead Natives, or that within the last fifty years Americans committed atrocities in Vietnam? If not, then why do you feel the need to barge in here to remind everyone that the British Empire was bad?

(To disclaim, I'm very interested in the USA and I am not against their right to be proud of their history any more than I am against the right of the English, or the Irish or anyone else to be proud of theirs. I'm not a nationalist as I say, but I fail to see the problem with those who are).

I have a different opinion, look first off, for the umpteenth time I only brought history up after Cal did, ive said also umpteen strawberry floating times that you should be proud to be English, I just think when they discuss their 'glorious days of rule' and the 'British Empire (Third Reich)' that they ignore completly the atrocities, all other countries probably do the same but I know more about English History in Ireland than most English do.

Couple of points there boss:

1. I identify as Scottish, not English. I'm not proud to be anything, and have stated my non-nationalist ideals in this very thread. Cal's proud of english history(and I never thought I'd be sticking up for the guy), which he has every right to be. England has been the catalyst for a great many scientific and social achievements, great thinkers like Isaac Newton etc etc are English and I completely understand why you'd be proud to come from the same country as those blokes.

You steamed in with a blanket suggestion that English people shouldn't be proud of their history, at all, and were rightly jumped on. I should think it goes without saying that no-one in this thread is seriously proud of the Battle of the Boyne, or Cromwell killing a million catholics, or the murder of indigenous Africans/Indians/Native Americans/Aboriginals. Only an idiot would try and defend that.

2. I know plenty about English history in Ireland (and Scotland for that matter), from the War of the Three Kingdoms through the Penal Laws to Bloody Sunday and beyond. Not only is it part of my cultural history, I also have two degrees in history. I hate to be *that* guy who whips out his credentials during a discussion, but I sense patronisation from your posts and I do not like the implication that I don't know what I'm talking about.

3. Who the strawberry float mentioned glorious days of rule in here?

And lastly, I've never heard an Englishman refer to Cromwell as Lord Protector at Arms. He killed Scots as well as Irish, and isn't very well liked in the UK. There's a reason people laugh at Cromwell societies.

The National Trust
English Heritage

I don't celebrate St. George's day. I worry people will think it unduly associates me with Cal.

I havent whipped out any credentials at all, you have however. If you go to school in Ireland we're thought about it all, plus growing up here and having the Northern Ireland situation (sicheshin) just makes it more relevant really, to me at least.

No need to be condescending cora, I thought you supported blackburn, but was aware you are scottish, It was a mistake gramatically rather than a slight on you, if you consider it one.

I'm out of here, Be proud to be English, dont let the fat bulldogs tattoed skinheads be a reason for not being proud.

Photek wrote:Oliver Cromwell has a statue at westminster amongst many others throughout England and is referred to as Lord Protector at Arms.

I wonder why the guy that fought against the monarchy for parliament gets a statue at parliament...

He was a child murderer...You'll not see a monument to a person like that in many countries.

Really? Take a look at any country in the world with a long history and you will see statues and monuments to Kings, Queens, Emperors and leaders that were just as bad as Cromwell.

Photek wrote:

Qikz wrote:

Photek wrote:A very insignificant day in comparison to St Patricks Day which is celebrated world-wide but Indeed Happy St Georges Day Englanders.

St Patricks Day is celebrated "worldwide", because people use it as an example to go out and get drunk. I don't think I've ever celebrated St Georges day and I don't think I ever will. It's just not an important day to me and has no significance.

Jealousy

Fact is, from Here to Asia, to the Americas, from Japan to Africa, people celebrate this little country of mine.

Trust you to turn this into a sales thread


Fair play to the Guinness marketing team. Considering they're basically peddling a disgusting drink that tastes like ashtrays and turns your gooseberry fool black, they've managed to turn St Patrick's Day into quite the phenomenon.


On topic, I couldn't give a gooseberry fool about St George's Day. I am English by place of birth alone, and have too much Scottish and Irish in me (50/50) to consider myself anything but British.

The thing is, imagine if we managed to turn it onto a day of celebration, throwing off the (ironic) moral shackles of both our imperial past and the current EDL-linked stigma. Imagine we move on from those things... what what would St George celebrations be like? They be strawberry floating LAME. Village greens, April showers, soggy food and morris dancing. strawberry float that, thanks.

Photek wrote:You'll not see a monument to a person like that in many countries.

There's a statue of Father Theobald Mathew in Dublin, one of the most famous advocates of teetotalism. What do you think he'd have to say about St Patrick's Day?

Well this thread was a lot of fun.

Moggy wrote:

Photek wrote:Oliver Cromwell has a statue at westminster amongst many others throughout England and is referred to as Lord Protector at Arms.

I wonder why the guy that fought against the monarchy for parliament gets a statue at parliament...

He was a child murderer...You'll not see a monument to a person like that in many countries.

Really? Take a look at any country in the world with a long history and you will see statues and monuments to Kings, Queens, Emperors and leaders that were just as bad as Cromwell.

The EVERYONE ELSE DOES IT argument again! fuckinghell

sorry, im done...

Photek wrote:I havent whipped out any credentials at all, you have however. If you go to school in Ireland we're thought about it all, plus growing up here and having the Northern Ireland situation (sicheshin) just makes it more relevant really, to me at least.

No need to be condescending cora, I thought you supported blackburn, but was aware you are scottish, It was a mistake gramatically rather than a slight on you, if you consider it one.

I'm out of here, Be proud to be English, dont let the fat bulldogs tattoed skinheads be a reason for not being proud.

You missed my point completely. I tell you about my education only because you implied that you knew more about the subject of Irish history than anyone else in the thread. While I don't doubt that you're knowledgeable on the subject - as anyone who went to school in Ireland no doubt is - I only seek to show that you're not preaching to ignorant people, and I found your post's tone(alongside all the rest of your posts in this thread, if I'm honest) condescending and unwelcome.