Hillsborough - Trial of David Duckenfield has been unable to reach a verdict, Graham Mackrell found guilty

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Poser » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:48 pm

Dan. wrote:
Poser wrote:
Ironhide wrote:I still think the fans themselves played a major part in the disaster, not those who died obviously, but the fans who were late arriving and desperately shoving to get in are in my opinion just as 'guilty' as the police and ground officials who decided to open the gates (mainly because people were getting crushed against them).

I don't actually think anyone should be 'punished' it was a tragic accident caused by a variety of factors as as such is unfair to blame individuals.


The whole point of today is that everything you've posted there has been proven to be incorrect.

Read this - it's long, but is one of the best articles I have ever read. It should hopefully help you understand better what went on.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... ed-decades


Great read. Quite hard to read at times, too.


I won't lie, it brought me to tears three times.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Squinty » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:56 pm

That article really outlines how badly handled this was by the Yorkshire police. Not to mention all the falsified scenarios that were created with the purpose of laying full blame on the people were in those pens. The gymnasium paragraphs are truly horrifying.

Regarding Ironhide's point, I think the police played a bigger part in this, and could've prevented or mitigated this. But, I think Ironhide is right in saying that both sides are to blame. I'm glad there is closure for the victims families. The truth always tends to come out, no matter how far it is buried.

Thanks for posting that article. It was a great read.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Photek » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:07 pm

Dust seems to be in my eyes....

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Tineash » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:42 pm

strawberry float The Sun, strawberry float Boris Johnson, strawberry float Kelvin McKenzie, strawberry float Bernard Ingham, strawberry float Thatcher, strawberry float South Yorkshire police, and strawberry float Ironhide.

Did I forget anyone?

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Ironhide » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:56 pm

Tineash wrote:strawberry float The Sun, strawberry float Boris Johnson, strawberry float Kelvin McKenzie, strawberry float Bernard Ingham, strawberry float Thatcher, strawberry float South Yorkshire police, and strawberry float Ironhide.

Did I forget anyone?


strawberry float you too.

:cry:

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Irene Demova » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:04 pm

This has always been one of those things that I just never expected to get resolved, seemed like it was going to hang over English football and Law forever so I'm glad to see it finally reach a verdict that isn't absolute bollocks.

It shouldn't really matter in any stadium whether or not the fans are drunk and pushing each other, whoever is operating and policing the venue has a basic duty to not allow events to get into a position where something as avoidable as a mass crush happens; this wasn't a riot, it was just people being led into an area too small to contain them, something that is and was totally avoidable.
And let's not go into massive arguments on this just to snipe at Liverpool fans, the old Hillsborough thread on here is absolutely disgusting.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by zXe » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:04 pm

This is just such a sad event, but glad to hear the result for the sake of the families and victims. Not even comparable to this, but I was at a metal festival and I was kind of near the front and on the first day it was megadeth playing (pretty popular band if you don't know them) and there was a pretty intense surge where people from the back were pushing forward - there must have been about 20-30,000 people.

It got to to the point where people were getting tightly squashed and even falling back on each other because in that situation you can't really move yourself freely and if there is a surge/crush you can't hold against the weight of hundreds of people, you just go with the flow which inevitable leads to your legs getting interlocked with someone else's and you fall down. Fortunately I fell back but onto a larger, built person and I'm pretty lightweight so it wasn't to much of a desperate scramble. It died down pretty fast though and the crowd filtered out and it was fine after, but for about 5 mins or so it was pretty scary. You just have no control and it's hard to escape. I can't even begin to imagine what it must have been like for those at Hillsborough.

Last edited by zXe on Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Qikz » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:05 pm

Glad the families have finally got some justice.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Squinty » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:46 pm

Tineash wrote:strawberry float The Sun, strawberry float Boris Johnson, strawberry float Kelvin McKenzie, strawberry float Bernard Ingham, strawberry float Thatcher, strawberry float South Yorkshire police, and strawberry float Ironhide.

Did I forget anyone?


Well, that's a bit harsh :lol:

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by mcjihge2 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:55 pm

A few of the remarks from some of my work colleagues:

1) "2 years and millions of tax payers money this has cost."

The cost of this was down to the police cover up - everyone is out of pocket because of their lies.

2) "The Scousers just didnt let it go."

This is an interesting one. Had this tragedy occurred with Man utd, Arsenal, Villa or any other team - would they have fought against it for 27 years to get justice?

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Cuttooth » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:12 pm

mcjihge2 wrote:A few of the remarks from some of my work colleagues:

1) "2 years and millions of tax payers money this has cost."

The cost of this was down to the police cover up - everyone is out of pocket because of their lies.

2) "The Scousers just didnt let it go."

This is an interesting one. Had this tragedy occurred with Man utd, Arsenal, Villa or any other team - would they have fought against it for 27 years to get justice?

I think a lot of negative sentiments toward the victims and their families will have stemmed from those initial lies that for years too many easily swallowed as the truth. South Yorkshire Police and The Sun have a lot to answer for.

The struggle against that backlash for the families is something I couldn't imagine suffering.

The disaster was literally waiting to happen as well, I can't understand how people paint it as something that could have happened only to Liverpool fans.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Moggy » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:33 pm

mcjihge2 wrote:This is an interesting one. Had this tragedy occurred with Man utd, Arsenal, Villa or any other team - would they have fought against it for 27 years to get justice?


It's impossible to answer but the bullshit immediately afterwards from rags like the sun would have helped to galvanise the fight for justice. Would the papers have gone after fans of other teams in the same way or was it easy for them to paint scousers as the "bad guys".

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by FatDaz » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:28 pm

TigaSefi wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/hillsborough-verdicts-police-chief-david-duckenfield-among-key-f/

Not as easy as it seems due to previous "stays" and conditions. Hope he takes to the drink again and have a long painful death that way....


Gross negligence or not your comment is harsh. It's not like he deliberately planned for 96 people to die and therefore wishing a painful death on someone who has had to live with the guilt of what he contributed to is just nasty.

I'm not saying he's not at fault, but please remember we are talking about negligent manslaughter not murder. He was doing a job (albeit badly) under extreme pressure and it's had 27 years of being scrutinised.

I won't defend the lies and cover up though (but it's hardly enough to justify wishing him a painful death)

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Cyburn2 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:51 pm

mcjihge2 wrote:A few of the remarks from some of my work colleagues:

1) "2 years and millions of tax payers money this has cost."

The cost of this was down to the police cover up - everyone is out of pocket because of their lies.

2) "The Scousers just didnt let it go."

This is an interesting one. Had this tragedy occurred with Man utd, Arsenal, Villa or any other team - would they have fought against it for 27 years to get justice?


I could only think the only other team to take that long if note more would be Millwall.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by TigaSefi » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:53 pm

Maybe so but lying through his teeth for 27 years was harsh on the families! I see Sir Ingham refuses to apologise as well! :x

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Herdanos » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:54 pm

Yeah. And I would argue that the families won't care whether a prosecution is pursued or not - it won't bring back their loved ones. But the verdict of today will mean that justice has been done, and the smears that were said and printed regarding the circumstances of their deaths have been rejected as such.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by SEP » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:58 pm

FatDaz wrote:I won't defend the lies and cover up though (but it's hardly enough to justify wishing him a painful death)


He lied for 26 years, and in doing so caused inconceivable amounts of pain to the families of the victims. On top of losing their loved ones, they had to be subjected to a false narrative painting them as criminals and hooligans.

No amount of pain anyone could wish on him will even come close to the pain he has caused others. The man is a deplorable banana split without an ounce of humanity or integrity. He deserves anything that happens to him.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by Qikz » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:09 pm

FatDaz wrote:
TigaSefi wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/hillsborough-verdicts-police-chief-david-duckenfield-among-key-f/

Not as easy as it seems due to previous "stays" and conditions. Hope he takes to the drink again and have a long painful death that way....


Gross negligence or not your comment is harsh. It's not like he deliberately planned for 96 people to die and therefore wishing a painful death on someone who has had to live with the guilt of what he contributed to is just nasty.

I'm not saying he's not at fault, but please remember we are talking about negligent manslaughter not murder. He was doing a job (albeit badly) under extreme pressure and it's had 27 years of being scrutinised.

I won't defend the lies and cover up though (but it's hardly enough to justify wishing him a painful death)


Problem is, I doubt people would've scrutinised him as much had they just admitted they were in the wrong in the first place and tried to cover it up.

He should've served the time he deserved to serve for manslaughter and maybe the families wouldn't have had to go through so much suffering to get justice.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by FatDaz » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:45 pm

I haven't read the articles so I don't know the full findings etc.

But I think it's safe to say that he wasn't solely responsible for what happened. There were a number of factors that lead to the tragedy. He never set out that day to cause harm or strawberry float up. He was in a difficult position in control of a rapidly deteriating situation. It's easy to sit here with hindsight and say he was wrong and made bad decisions, but it's bloody tough doing what he has to do.

The cover up and lies has undone his character though. If he deserves to face justice it should be for the lies and cover up not for his actions on that fateful day.

You can easily set a dangerous precedent here, if he is jailed for his decision making that day, he will have in effect been jailed for trying to do his job. Once you set that precedent who would ever want to be in a position where any decision (fully informed or far more likely not) could land you in prison.

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PostRe: Hillsborough Verdict - Unlawful Killing
by bear » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:12 pm

Would he be on trial for just his decision making that day? He basically admitted during the inquest that he hadn't familiarised himself with potential issues with the stadiums layout and that the policing operation he signed off for the game was inadequate.



If there are going to criminal proceedings then I think they need to be targeted at those who organised the cover-up and attempted to put the blame onto the fans. Bettison, who used the tragedy as a way "to get himself noticed" needs to be held accountable for his actions in the weeks after the tragedy.


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