Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)

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Death's Head
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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Death's Head » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:59 am

Going to pick this up on the PC when it goes on offer....

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Seven Posers Posing » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:39 pm

Rex Kramer wrote:On sale today on the e-shop, 34% off according to HotUkDeals.


Yep, came here to post that. Picked it up. Probably won't get on it till after Zelda.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Death's Head » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:05 pm

Now £7.25 on Steam. Tempted but backlog etc

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Hime » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:05 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:
OrangeRakoon wrote:This post is so incorrect


I was quite drunk when I replied with this so apologies, although I stand by the sentiment! Here is a more invested rebuttal of some of the points made in this thread.

Hime wrote:horrendous platforming and inconsistent combat don't make aimlessly wandering very appealing.


The platforming is competent and every time you unlock an additional movement option it feels satisfying and rewarding to use. It takes a moment to get used to the jumping, and I think that is because there is no courtesy window on running off the edge of a platform - you must jump before running off the edge, not a moment afterwards (like many platformers allow). At least, that is what I think is going on. It would definitely explain how I felt when I adjusted when I started playing.

Respawning from deaths by spikes or drowning is instant and prevents frustration with the harder platforming sections. The only platforming in the game I could really complain about is the white palace because there it feels like it is trying to be a twitch platformer, but the health system is not set up to allow for repeated deaths. I got through it fine and the actual platforming was fun, I was just slowed down by having to worry about my health and how many more attempts I had before risking a game over. Luckily that part of the game is self-contained to the third ending, and the worst offending part of it (aka hardest) is entirely optional.

Inconsistent combat: The combat in Hollow Knight is incredibly consistent. The controls are tight and responsive and I can almost guarantee that you will get the same results from repeating the same actions - you can get a pretty clear demonstration of this in the arena as one easy example. The bosses are all about pattern recognition and learning, and this relies fundamentally on having consistent combat. When you die in Hollow Knight it is your fault, and once you learn an enemy or boss well enough you will be able to beat it consistently.

Hime wrote:I thought I'd look at a guide and I think I'm stuck at some bouncy mushrooms, it looks like you have to hit them to bounce higher :| . I know that it's almost the guaranteed path to critical success to have a fairly obtuse game with little to no explanation of the systems but what about that is intuitive?


I thought this was well designed to be intuitive as to what the player needs to do, and I have screenshots to prove it!

This is the room as it looks when you enter. You drop down from above so you're always coming in from this direction.

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See how there are some mushrooms on the floor just below the ledge you start on? These are perfectly positioned for you to fall onto when you run off the edge. And what happens when you drop onto them? You bounce!

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When you try to move further right there is this obvious pillar that is far too high to jump over, but you can also see past it on the screen and see that this is a way to go - and on either side there are more mushrooms at half the height of the pillar.

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The player may well have figured out what to do already, but more hints are to be found if necessary. These mushrooms are new and the player is quite likely to try attacking them (especially as there are other breakable scenery mushrooms surrounding them). Hit the ones on the ground from the side and you'll be sent skidding backwards - a direct demonstration that attacking the mushrooms bounces you off further than just colliding with them.

It is left to the player to fill in the final piece of the puzzle, that you have to do a downwards attack on the mushrooms to gain the height you need - but I think the game does a very good job of guiding the player towards the solution without telling them. Revisiting it I actually think it's a good example of how well the game is designed!

Karl wrote:To take some of the heat off you, on top of that I also absolutely despise this game's art style.


The art style is adorably dark, and the fact that they pull off such a mix deserves recognition. The animation is smooth and pleasing while also not getting in the way of the incredibly responsive gameplay and character control. This isn't a game where you get caught waiting for animations to complete and that is part of why it plays so well, and yet the player character still looks lovely in motion.

A common criticism also seems to be Hollow Knight's use of colour, as the game is largely black, grey and blue with white highlights. This muted colour palette matches the melancholic world, but it also works well as a backdrop for the bright contrasting orange that signals the infection. This makes the game very easy and intuitive to read when it comes to working out what is dangerous.

I'm glad you added the winking face at least because I can understand not being keen on the art style in general, but it should never be despised when it has objective merit ;)

Jenuall wrote:The map system doesn't help with this either, it doesn't always mark area transitions on the map with a label so it can look like you have an unexplored "doorway" to go through when actually it is somewhere you have already been. Similarly by marking a whole area on a map when you enter it it's hard to remember if it genuinely is a room that you have explored all the way through, or if there was something that prevented you from doing so. This is all then compounded by the sheer scale of the map which means it can take a long time to traverse between areas where you think you may need to go next, as well as making it much harder to remember the make up of the different areas: "I know there were a few places that some of my new abilities would help with but it's been hours since I saw those places and now I can't remember where I should be going!"


This was presumably a complaint with the game on release, because the free content updates (that the Switch version launched with) include tools made to counter this. You can buy pin sets to place on the map to mark locations you have found, and there are more than enough pins for you to mark out each type of obstacle requiring a certain power to overcome. I didn't use them because I binged the game sufficiently to not forget what I was doing and I remembered the location of places I needed to return to, but for someone playing the game more casually the tools exist within the game to make it through. The genre is about exploration and being able to reach new parts of old areas, so I think it comes with a certain expectation of the player to do this themselves. If you struggle to remember where you should be going back to, that's what the pins are for - and they are very reasonably priced so as to be accessible from almost the very beginning of the game.

Thanks for posting this,I've been meaning to write a lengthy response for a while but haven't gotten round to it. The screenshots and your explanation are fair and demonstrate how the player should come across the solution organically. The problem is that I didn't hit the mushrooms so was never presented with the solution. Even knowing the solution it doesn't feel natural to hit downwards on something to jump higher so I didn't have an "oh of course!" moment but a "that's strawberry floating bullshit" moment.

I cannot agree about the combat. There is an enemy with a club that you can attack when when his club has stuck the ground. Sometimes the attack registers, sometimes it doesn't.

I'll agree that the platforming is competent but that is damning with faint praise. It's nowhere near good enough for a game that you spend so much time jumping.

Ultimately my biggest frustration was that I wasn't able to continue as I was enjoying the game. I want to keep going but to be honest seeing people get completely exhausted with the game is not filling me with hope that I will see it through.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by OrangeReindeer » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:59 pm

Hime wrote:The screenshots and your explanation are fair and demonstrate how the player should come across the solution organically. The problem is that I didn't hit the mushrooms so was never presented with the solution. Even knowing the solution it doesn't feel natural to hit downwards on something to jump higher so I didn't have an "oh of course!" moment but a "that's strawberry floating bullshit" moment.


I think this is the first point in the game where you /need/ to do a downwards attack at all, so I can see why someone might not think to try it. I've played games before where you have to attack down to jump higher (I'm quite a big Klonoa fan for a start) so I guess there is general gaming context the game assumes that not every player will have.

Hime wrote:I cannot agree about the combat. There is an enemy with a club that you can attack when when his club has stuck the ground. Sometimes the attack registers, sometimes it doesn't.


All I can say is that I never had this problem

Hime wrote:I want to keep going but to be honest seeing people get completely exhausted with the game is not filling me with hope that I will see it through.


I absolutely loved the game so I want to see others feel the same, but I can't fault you for having given it a go and deciding it isn't for you. Unless the combat at least clicks with you then it probably would be a slog to continue.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Mafro » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:48 am

Got this in the sale on the eShop. Looking forward to starting it later :)

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Rudolphin » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:15 pm

Popping in to say I 100% agree with Hime. I enjoyed the game for about 10 hours then I reached a spot where the game just gave up giving me any sense of what I should be doing. Every 'open' doorway on the map was blocked by an obstacle I wasn't equipped to get through (or was one of the super-hard platforming sections that are inevitably optional). I googled where I should be going, and apparently I had to buy a key from the shop and use it on an otherwise unremarkable doodad. The game gave me zero indication I needed a key, or that the doodad was anything to do with progression at all.

I just gave up, and haven't been bothered to go back since.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Bethlehemster » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:55 pm

Picked this up from the E shop for 7.25.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Mafro » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:09 pm

This is very cute :3

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Hime » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:33 pm

Man I'm trying so hard to get back into this but the section with the jumpy mushrooms is strawberry floating dreadful. Dying because you've mistimed a jump is fine but when the downwards attack just doesn't work sometimes it just feels cheap. Having to then restart from miles away doesn't make it any better. I can't believe they thought taking the weakest part of the game and making it even shitter would be a good idea :lol:

I'll give it a bit longer as I do like the exploration but I'm likely done with this.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by OrangeReindeer » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:36 pm

The downwards attack is always consistent, but you can't spam it as there is a time window after attacking where you can't immediately attack again.

If you have the quick slash pin, equip it. Long nail is also very useful.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Hime » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:11 am

Maybe it's consistent but has horrible timing like the rest of the platforming.

*Edit* I'm still determined to get through this bit too see if I enjoy it once I'm back to adventuring.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by The Watching Artist » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:25 am

Started this last night. Lots of positives. Looks and sounds lovely. Quite a charm to itself. :wub: Plays well. But I did find the opening part a bit meh. I wondered about a bit aimless (as you would expect for this type of thing) and my first goal seemed to be to grind for cash to be able to buy some map stuff. Not exactly thrilling. But I do like the way the map progress works. So thats cool.

Anyway I like it but I am struggling a little with the movement. Playing on Switch so I don't have a proper D-pad and I'm not keen on using the buttons. Not too bothered by the buttons themselves but its the combo of them not being a D-pad and not quite being in a comfy position for me. So I'm sticking with the, errrrr, stick. Which has created a few issues where I've noticeably attacked in the wrong direction. Usually where I've let go of the stick to do a neutral attack but as its flicked back its attacked somewhere else and I've been hit. :x Also makes small movements a pain. Would it really have taken much to have implemented a slower walking animation so it was easier to pick up cash thats landed right on the edge of platforms? The amount of times I've fallen off. :x

Movement feels VERY slow after Samus Returns. Not a bad thing as such but when I've been backtracking through empty rooms it was noticeable to me just how slow it was. I assume/hope I unlock some movement abilities.

All I've done is beat the first boss and got the projectile power. Looking forward to playing a lot more. :D

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Johnny Ryall » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:55 pm

I played the the analogue stick because to be fair it has analogue movement.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by OrangeReindeer » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:16 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:Movement feels VERY slow after Samus Returns. Not a bad thing as such but when I've been backtracking through empty rooms it was noticeable to me just how slow it was. I assume/hope I unlock some movement abilities.


You will, don't worry!

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by The Watching Artist » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:41 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Movement feels VERY slow after Samus Returns. Not a bad thing as such but when I've been backtracking through empty rooms it was noticeable to me just how slow it was. I assume/hope I unlock some movement abilities.


You will, don't worry!

Indeed. I now have dash and wall jump. Which feels quite odd.

I'm just going around pretty much aimlessly tbh. Think I've still only beaten one proper boss.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Caroller » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:17 pm

That does happen a fair bit.

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by The Watching Artist » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:32 pm

This is strawberry floating great. :datass: :wub:

Still just exploring somewhat aimlessly. :lol: I know I have to find 3 things for the thing. But thats about it. :lol: It's not bothering me really as I keep finding places and things. I can now smash the ground and fly across the screen. :o Today I found City of Tears, the waterways below that, the nasty pits/ruins/caves below that and then the crystal mines which looped back round to the first town. :datass: Enjoyed exploring them all. Got a bit fed up with the teleporting enemies spawning on me ffs. That was irritating. The run to the boss (Soul Master) was a dick and so was he. Enjoyed fight with Dung Man. Only downside was that most of these places didn't seem to have a travel point so trekking back could be a chore.

I feel it could deal with a little bit of streamlining. Some things really should be closer to a fast travel point like the smith. Why couldn't he just move back to town like the shopkeeper? :?

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by Jenu-All I Want For Christmas » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:35 pm

I think I'm getting near to the end on this now, there are not too many places on the map left to explore and I've just got the Shade Cloak ability which I think is what will get me past the remaining barriers I've encountered so far.

By my reckoning there is still another nail upgrade to get which is worrying as I've not found any more ore yet!

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PostRe: Hollow Knight (Dark Souls x Castlevania x Beetles)
by The Watching Artist » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:21 pm

This boss fight-
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Get strawberry floated. :x

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