If core games continue to sell badly on Wii & DS...

...will developers start abandoning the formats for those type of games? If a title of GTA's stature can't shift on the DS, nothing will. Surely that's sending out a message to publishers it's a dead end; best stick with the poorly cobbled together gooseberry fool. Even then, it's such a crowed market now, that avenue isn't a safe bet either.

What was that old saying? Only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo machines.

Start abandoning?

KKLEIN wrote:...will developers start abandoning the formats for those type of games? If a title of GTA's stature can't shift on the DS, nothing will. Surely that's sending out a message to publishers it's a dead end; best stick with the poorly cobbled together ****. Even then, it's such a crowed market now, that avenue isn't a safe bet either.

What was that old saying? Only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo machines.

I think many Developers and Publishers caught onto the Wii late and just churned out some easy ports to make quick cash. Only now are they seeing a potential but many are still content in doing the same old thing. The other issue is that many 3rd Party games just don't get the marketing and hype that Nintendo give to their own products.

It is true, Nintendo know how to sell their own products.

I still think that most publishers do a half-arsed job at promoting their DS and Wii titles, but there's a definite vicious circle in effect here. Because Wii's success came as such a surprise to most, the vast majority of publishers (and developers) were caught on the hop, and so the Wii in particular suffered from a lack of core-focused content - barring the launch window titles, anyway. Because most then continued to adopt a wait-and-see approach, believing the console's success to be a fad, it was only Nintendo and a couple of third-parties who were making core titles for the console, until people realised Wii wasn't going to go away and started working on games which would appeal to demographics other than the expanded audience Nintendo had so successfully courted.

But by that stage, it was perhaps too late - a lot of core gamers focused their attention on one or both of the HD consoles, and so the drip-feed of core games like MadWorld just seemed like closing the stable door after the horse had bolted. The simple fact is that core titles on Wii won't sell if they're such a small part of the console's portfolio - the problem being that the ones which do exist discourage other publishers from making more core-friendly titles when the sales figures roll in. The other issue is that a lot of people who own Wii and another console would rather play something in HD than a new Wii game unless it's a key first-party title in a beloved franchise or a big third-party exclusive, though the latter again would almost certainly have to be in a recognised franchise to have any success. In other words, more people are graphics whores than they care to admit - or core gamers just don't like having to adapt to the Wii's controllers. Then there's the fact that Wii ports of HD titles are often more than just graphically-inferior - they don't have anything like the same feature set for the most part. Those publishers who do tailor their titles to Wii's strengths are generally seeing more success than those who don't bother, but then again it tends to be fairly inclusive, social titles like Guitar Hero and Rock Band which do okay on Wii, rather than anything with an M-rating for the solo player.

In short, Wii is stuck between a rock and a hard place, while the DS is troubled by piracy. The low cost of making a game for the latter in particular will mean that the handheld never wants for core-focused titles (albeit relatively niche ones for the most part) because the games don't have to sell that many to make a profit. On Wii, it might well be a different matter, but when you see games like Boom Blox get a sequel despite loads of people saying the first one bombed, perhaps we shouldn't necessarily be paying too close attention to the first month sales of Wii titles.

Core games? Horrible name, means nothing.

Sell Badly? No.

Rockstar sabotaged GTA's release themselves with their 'play it cool' approach.

It really says something when even the majority of people on this forum were surprised at how good it was. They should have been singing from the rooftops and attempting to embrace the new userbase instead of hiding the game away and giving exclusive coverage to the likes of Edge.

Even if the hardware installed-base is 50 million, 100 million, or a billion, you still need to promote your game.

HSH28 wrote:Core games? Horrible name, means nothing.

Well what word, Sir, would you recommend I use?

Oxx wrote:Rockstar sabotaged GTA's release themselves with their 'play it cool' approach.

This - they really have only themselves to blame - BUT, how's it doing now ? - is it slowly burning away sales wise or has it completely died ??

Whether 'core' games will sell on wii or not might well be demonstrated, in Japan at least, by how well the new Monster Hunter does. In this country something like Codemasters upcoming F1 title, if only reasonably good , might be a kind of marker also.

The trick developers / publishers have to pull off is to persuade the majority (?) that the wii can do other things than wii sports and party games. Do many realise this at all ? How they do this I'm not sure. It does seem to me that this year there are actually quite a few 'normal' titles coming along. Trouble is, will they all be drowned out by motion+plus anyway ?

But I do think there's an awful lot to be said for the need for canny marketing - you can't just stick something on a shelf and cross your fingers.

KKLEIN wrote:

HSH28 wrote:Core games? Horrible name, means nothing.

Well what word, Sir, would you recommend I use?

No words at all.

The distinction between so called 'core' and 'casual' is meaningless.

I think this stems from the fact that nintendo just arent good at promoting games full stop. The reason the "casual" games generate such huge sales is from positive word of mouth, not because of some amazing ad campagin or nationwide promotion. Wheras generating such positive word of mouth for core titles requires either a more subtle approach, or a genuinely amazing game.

HSH28 wrote:No words at all.

The distinction between so called 'core' and 'casual' is meaningless.

Well you bloody used it...

HSH28 wrote:Perhaps, but you are comparing it to numbers from last year. I'm pretty sure some 'core' gamers bought a Wii with Mario Kart and Smash Brothers.

KKLEIN wrote:

HSH28 wrote:No words at all.

The distinction between so called 'core' and 'casual' is meaningless.

Well you bloody used it...

HSH28 wrote:Perhaps, but you are comparing it to numbers from last year. I'm pretty sure some 'core' gamers bought a Wii with Mario Kart and Smash Brothers.

If you really can't see the difference then theres no hope for you.

Hero of Canton wrote:I still think that most publishers do a half-arsed job at promoting their DS and Wii titles, but there's a definite vicious circle in effect here. Because Wii's success came as such a surprise to most, the vast majority of publishers (and developers) were caught on the hop, and so the Wii in particular suffered from a lack of core-focused content - barring the launch window titles, anyway. Because most then continued to adopt a wait-and-see approach, believing the console's success to be a fad, it was only Nintendo and a couple of third-parties who were making core titles for the console, until people realised Wii wasn't going to go away and started working on games which would appeal to demographics other than the expanded audience Nintendo had so successfully courted.

But by that stage, it was perhaps too late - a lot of core gamers focused their attention on one or both of the HD consoles, and so the drip-feed of core games like MadWorld just seemed like closing the stable door after the horse had bolted. The simple fact is that core titles on Wii won't sell if they're such a small part of the console's portfolio - the problem being that the ones which do exist discourage other publishers from making more core-friendly titles when the sales figures roll in. The other issue is that a lot of people who own Wii and another console would rather play something in HD than a new Wii game unless it's a key first-party title in a beloved franchise or a big third-party exclusive, though the latter again would almost certainly have to be in a recognised franchise to have any success. In other words, more people are graphics whores than they care to admit - or core gamers just don't like having to adapt to the Wii's controllers. Then there's the fact that Wii ports of HD titles are often more than just graphically-inferior - they don't have anything like the same feature set for the most part. Those publishers who do tailor their titles to Wii's strengths are generally seeing more success than those who don't bother, but then again it tends to be fairly inclusive, social titles like Guitar Hero and Rock Band which do okay on Wii, rather than anything with an M-rating for the solo player.

In short, Wii is stuck between a rock and a hard place, while the DS is troubled by piracy. The low cost of making a game for the latter in particular will mean that the handheld never wants for core-focused titles (albeit relatively niche ones for the most part) because the games don't have to sell that many to make a profit. On Wii, it might well be a different matter, but when you see games like Boom Blox get a sequel despite loads of people saying the first one bombed, perhaps we shouldn't necessarily be paying too close attention to the first month sales of Wii titles.

Good stuff Hero. You should do this professionally.
You certainly got me there. I'm a massive nintendo fan and a big supporter of the Wii, and i would argue that graphics aren't all that til the cows come home. But since i got a shiny PS3 at christmas time, i've shunned the Madworld and China Town wars of the world in favour of a few games to show off the PS3, and there's a good chance that with my limited gaming budget, any future purchases that aren't mario or zelda games are likely to be some razzle dazzle PS3 games.

There are too many potential customers to ignore the Wii and the DS is just plagued with piracy. GTA is probably the single biggest case of this being true.

I have to agree with HoC though, third party has missed the boat with the Wii. I would say the biggest issue is the fact that the current theory to making a modern "core" game seems to be the "bigger and better" approach. It's easy to shoehorn a popular game type into a new engine, pull off some good graphics and a few extra features, and get away with it. The problem is that you can't do that with the Wii as it is limited in what it can do. This means that there is too much risk in making a big money title unless you get the controls or gameplay spot on, otherwise most people won't touch it.

I could be completely wrong, but the impression I get is that it is too much hassle to try and make something special that is a complete package rather than something that just ticks a couple of boxes and makes a quick buck.

shas'la wrote:I think this stems from the fact that nintendo just arent good at promoting games full stop. The reason the "casual" games generate such huge sales is from positive word of mouth, not because of some amazing ad campagin or nationwide promotion.

Sorry, shas, you may be incredibly handsome and all (he is, fellow GRcaders, I've met him) but I have to disagree with you there. I think Nintendo has done an amazing job promoting its mass-market games this generation, and I do think that's a big part of Wii's success. You need only look at the sales spikes for games post ad-campaigns to see how the promotions are working. And games like Rhythm Paradise and Professor Layton - games of Japanese origin which wouldn't seem to have mass appeal - have undoubtedly benefitted from celeb-centric TV coverage.

Wheras generating such positive word of mouth for core titles requires either a more subtle approach, or a genuinely amazing game.

That's true enough. Or maybe Nintendo's core titles would benefit from a bit of marketing attention. Get Obama playing Pikmin 3 and sales would skyrocket.

Hero of Canton wrote:
Sorry, shas, you may be incredibly handsome and all (he is, fellow GRcaders, I've met him) but I have to disagree with you there. I think Nintendo has done an amazing job promoting its mass-market games this generation, and I do think that's a big part of Wii's success. You need only look at the sales spikes for games post ad-campaigns to see how the promotions are working. And games like Rhythm Paradise and Professor Layton - games of Japanese origin which wouldn't seem to have mass appeal - have undoubtedly benefitted from celeb-centric TV coverage.

Don't forget Punchout!!...

If they use those live action trailers it is bound to be a winner.

Hero of Canton wrote: The other issue is that a lot of people who own Wii and another console would rather play something in HD than a new Wii game unless it's a key first-party title in a beloved franchise or a big third-party exclusive, though the latter again would almost certainly have to be in a recognised franchise to have any success. In other words, more people are graphics whores than they care to admit - or core gamers just don't like having to adapt to the Wii's controllers.

That pretty much sums up my attitude to the Wii. I will buy Punch out when thats released and hope it has standard controls.

KKLEIN wrote:...will developers start abandoning the formats for those type of games?

What was that old saying? Only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo machines.

But could the situation be flipped - would the next generation of MS and Sony consoles only concentrate on the "mass market" games and ignore the core games completely? Are we experiencing the extinction of the "core game"?

Perhaps the only place in the future to play gears of war 4 and gran turismo 6 will be the PC.

HSH28 wrote:

KKLEIN wrote:

HSH28 wrote:Core games? Horrible name, means nothing.

Well what word, Sir, would you recommend I use?

No words at all.

The distinction between so called 'core' and 'casual' is meaningless.

Ok, compare Golden Balls and Twighlight Princess.

KKLEIN wrote:...will developers start abandoning the formats for those type of games? If a title of GTA's stature can't shift on the DS, nothing will. Surely that's sending out a message to publishers it's a dead end; best stick with the poorly cobbled together ****. Even then, it's such a crowed market now, that avenue isn't a safe bet either.

What was that old saying? Only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo machines.

GTA had bugger all marketing and a game of GTAs stature always pales in comparison to Nintendo's best titles anyway. Given the choice most DS owners will choose Phantom Hourglass over Chinatown wars. And lets not forget the average DS owner is quite mature compared to the average 360 owner (in terms of age) and GTA has that stigmatism that just doesnt appeal to the Brain Age crowd. Or girls.

Alvin Flummux wrote:Start abandoning?