Inside North Korea

John Galt wrote:Proof if there ever was that Communism and Socialism don't work. It's unbelievable that the country exists in such a state yet I can fully understand why no country wants to take up the task of liberating North Korea.

PCCD wrote:Wait until the World Cup's finished then go to Pyongyang and tell everyone who really won. Problem solved

It would be interesting too hear whether this happens. After all, if you can pretend that people a few miles south of your country's border are living lives opposite to what they're actually living then it shouldn't be too hard to falsify your nation as World Cup victors.

Do the North Koreans even know a World Cup's on? An article I read on the BBC recently said that officials made no mention of the football team at all.

John Galt wrote:Proof if there ever was that Communism and Socialism don't work. It's unbelievable that the country exists in such a state yet I can fully understand why no country wants to take up the task of liberating North Korea.

PCCD wrote:Wait until the World Cup's finished then go to Pyongyang and tell everyone who really won. Problem solved

It would be interesting too hear whether this happens. After all, if you can pretend that people a few miles south of your country's border are living lives opposite to what they're actually living then it shouldn't be too hard to falsify your nation as World Cup victors.

I'd be more surprised if the general population of NK even knew the World Cup was going on.

edit: damn you Red, you fast typer scum!

John Galt wrote:Proof if there ever was that Communism and Socialism don't work. It's unbelievable that the country exists in such a state yet I can fully understand why no country wants to take up the task of liberating North Korea.

I think balance is the key to a fair society. China seem to be embracing capitalism while America are finally in the process of socializing services like healthcare

One nice thing I read was about Chinese people in a border town sending WAP enabled phones down the river so North Koreans could get sneaky web access. I'd happily donate a couple of my old mobiles to that cause. Wouldn't it be great if it was the Internet that caused the last communist state on earth to collapse

Pedz wrote:I remember watching a program and it had people trying to cross the border in to SK and were just shot dead by guards on the NK border. I'm also sure a lot of the journalism and stuff has to be done secretly(not all, just some, I think.) Though the thing I watched was years ago, and that last bit may be wrong.

As in that video, apparently if you get past the NK gaurds you'll just be killed by the Americans, I don't know whether to believe it or not, but it's probably believable.

Preezy wrote:

John Galt wrote:Proof if there ever was that Communism and Socialism don't work. It's unbelievable that the country exists in such a state yet I can fully understand why no country wants to take up the task of liberating North Korea.

PCCD wrote:Wait until the World Cup's finished then go to Pyongyang and tell everyone who really won. Problem solved

It would be interesting too hear whether this happens. After all, if you can pretend that people a few miles south of your country's border are living lives opposite to what they're actually living then it shouldn't be too hard to falsify your nation as World Cup victors.

I'd be more surprised if the general population of NK even knew the World Cup was going on.

edit: damn you Red, you fast typer scum!

StayDead wrote:

Pedz wrote:I remember watching a program and it had people trying to cross the border in to SK and were just shot dead by guards on the NK border. I'm also sure a lot of the journalism and stuff has to be done secretly(not all, just some, I think.) Though the thing I watched was years ago, and that last bit may be wrong.

As in that video, apparently if you get past the NK gaurds you'll just be killed by the Americans, I don't know whether to believe it or not, but it's probably believable.

American and South Korean troops would most definitely not shoot a journalist for crossing a white line, that is clearly scare-tactics from the North. They probably believe it themselves, but come on, no chance .

Not the article I was on about, but a similar story about naughty web access in NK

http://www.nautilus.org/fora/security/0 ... innon.html

StayDead wrote:

Pedz wrote:I remember watching a program and it had people trying to cross the border in to SK and were just shot dead by guards on the NK border. I'm also sure a lot of the journalism and stuff has to be done secretly(not all, just some, I think.) Though the thing I watched was years ago, and that last bit may be wrong.

As in that video, apparently if you get past the NK gaurds you'll just be killed by the Americans, I don't know whether to believe it or not, but it's probably believable.

That video showed that happening? i did in the one I saw. I ask, as I didn't watch the videos in the thread.

It didn't show her getting shot, an obvious scare tactic because it's not as if they'll ever get to the border before getting shot anyway.

Are the N.Korean football team and coaching staff threatened with death if they talk about their time in South Africa or something?

John Galt wrote:Proof if there ever was that Communism and Socialism don't work.

I don't know whether this is something you're well-versed in already, but you may not know that Socialism is actually a spectrum, encompassing everything from the extremes of Stalin and Mao to the benign progressivism of the Labour party.

--

Extreme - no market economy - usually Totalitarian
...
Stalinism - State rule is enforced through brutal totalitarianism. Control of production is held by the highly authoritarian national government. There is no market economy.
Communism - Authoritarian national government is managed by the proletariat. There is direct ownership of the local means of production by the local proletariat. There is no market economy.
Marxist Socialism - Authoritarian national government is managed by the proletariat. Joint local proletarian and government control over the means of production. There is no market economy.
Libertarian Socialism - Almost no national government (potential for Anarchism). There is direct democracy with regards to local governments which own local means of production on behalf of the proletariat. There is potential for some very limited market economies.
Market Socialism - Potential for democratic national governments. Most sectors of the economy are under state ownership, but there is some room for Capitalism. There is a state-regulated market economy.
Democratic Socialism - Democratic national governments. There is state ownership of many industries, especially essential industries and natural monopolies. There is a state-regulated market economy. See: the early Labour Party.
Social Democracy - Democratic national governments. There is some state ownership of industries. Characterised by the existence of a government-managed welfare system. The economy is lightly regulated against abuse of the free market. See: the more recent Labour Party, as well as the Liberal Democrats.
...
Center - free(ish) market economy - usually Democratic

--

Obviously my point is that I think that some kinds of Socialism can be reasonably positive things -- I identify somewhere inbetween what is called on Wikipedia "Social Democracy" and "Democratic Socialism", personally. I think that a pinch of Socialism in politics is a much better prospect, than, say, the classically neo-Liberal, right-wing-dominated free market politics in the States. (Of course, they're gradually drifting left as time goes on.)

Apologies if you already knew this, and were referring to, say, Marxist Socialism in particular.

Guys, I think I've found out something I shouldn't ha-xxxxxxxxxxxxqqqqqqqqqqqqvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv




Don't worry about that silly little post, there is nothing to be worried about, our glorious leader has everything under control and nobody should be worried, I'm very happy right now and why wouldn't I be. Our wonderful country truely is the best country in the world as created by our glorious leader.

Sincerely

General Kru- I mean, StayDead.

Na na na na na na na na, Leader!

Those kids singing the song on the stage was too creepy. Not sure if it'd be less creepy if they weren't singing praises for a horrible dictatorship, but there you go.

StayDead wrote:It didn't show her getting shot, an obvious scare tactic because it's not as if they'll ever get to the border before getting shot anyway.

I'm sure I saw something where people were shot trying to cross a river.

Karlprof wrote:

John Galt wrote:Proof if there ever was that Communism and Socialism don't work.

I don't know whether this is something you're well-versed in already, but you may not know that Socialism is actually a spectrum, encompassing everything from the extremes of Stalin and Mao to the benign progressivism of the Labour party.

--

Extreme - no market economy - usually Totalitarian
...
Stalinism - State rule is enforced through brutal totalitarianism. Control of production is held by the highly authoritarian national government. There is no market economy.
Communism - Authoritarian national government is managed by the proletariat. There is direct ownership of the local means of production by the local proletariat. There is no market economy.
Marxist Socialism - Authoritarian national government is managed by the proletariat. Joint local proletarian and government control over the means of production. There is no market economy.
Libertarian Socialism - Almost no national government (potential for Anarchism). There is direct democracy with regards to local governments which own local means of production on behalf of the proletariat. There is potential for some very limited market economies.
Market Socialism - Potential for democratic national governments. Most sectors of the economy are under state ownership, but there is some room for Capitalism. There is a state-regulated market economy.
Democratic Socialism - Democratic national governments. There is state ownership of many industries, especially essential industries and natural monopolies. There is a state-regulated market economy. See: the early Labour Party.
Social Democracy - Democratic national governments. There is some state ownership of industries. Characterised by the existence of a government-managed welfare system. The economy is lightly regulated against abuse of the free market. See: the more recent Labour Party, as well as the Liberal Democrats.
...
Center - free(ish) market economy - usually Democratic

--

Obviously my point is that I think that some kinds of Socialism can be reasonably positive things -- I identify somewhere inbetween what is called on Wikipedia "Social Democracy" and "Democratic Socialism", personally. I think that a pinch of Socialism in politics is a much better prospect, than, say, the classically neo-Liberal, right-wing-dominated free market politics in the States. (Of course, they're gradually drifting left as time goes on.)

Apologies if you already knew this, and were referring to, say, Marxist Socialism in particular.

I was mainly referring to the Marxist kind but I'm aware of the others too.

For me though, even basic socialism puts restraints on the freewill of individuals. I'll agree that a full-out capitalist system will have its flaws without certain government interventions but I'm still a believer in the individual and the individual's right to provide solely for themselves if they so desire.

The problem with communism and extreme socialism is that they require too much control in order to create the "equality" that they strive for and the only way to implement this properly is through a dictatorial rule. The illegal markets in the documentary are the perfect example of why free-will, determination and ambition will always thwart communism because there are some people who don't want to be dragged down by others. That's not to say communism is all bad, but as a full governmental and political system it can never work.

Pedz wrote:

StayDead wrote:It didn't show her getting shot, an obvious scare tactic because it's not as if they'll ever get to the border before getting shot anyway.

I'm sure I saw something where people were shot trying to cross a river.

If you did see that, which I don't doubt by the way, would have been North Korean guards shooting North Koreans trying to escape into the South.

Surely the guards must sometimes think, "we've been ordered to shoot people trying to escape our own country, maybe we're kinda bad"

Preezy wrote:

Pedz wrote:

StayDead wrote:It didn't show her getting shot, an obvious scare tactic because it's not as if they'll ever get to the border before getting shot anyway.

I'm sure I saw something where people were shot trying to cross a river.

If you did see that, which I don't doubt by the way, would have been North Korean guards shooting North Koreans trying to escape into the South.

Surely the guards must sometimes think, "we've been ordered to shoot people trying to escape our own country, maybe we're kinda bad"

I doubt that they realise they are the "baddies". They would view people trying to get to South Korea as traitors to their country and their Glorious Leader.

rinks wrote:http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-homefront/101159

Heh. I can't see anyone 'unify' North and South Korea, but pretty cool.

Moggy wrote:

Preezy wrote:

Pedz wrote:

StayDead wrote:It didn't show her getting shot, an obvious scare tactic because it's not as if they'll ever get to the border before getting shot anyway.

I'm sure I saw something where people were shot trying to cross a river.

If you did see that, which I don't doubt by the way, would have been North Korean guards shooting North Koreans trying to escape into the South.

Surely the guards must sometimes think, "we've been ordered to shoot people trying to escape our own country, maybe we're kinda bad"

I doubt that they realise they are the "baddies". They would view people trying to get to South Korea as traitors to their country and their Glorious Leader.

Reminds me a bit of this