jawa asks... unexpected sequels?

Anything to do with games at all.
User avatar
Herdanos
Go for it, Danmon!
Joined in 2008
AKA: lol don't ask
Location: Bas-Lag

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Herdanos » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:23 pm

Parksey wrote:
Dandy Kong wrote:None of Sunshine and the Galaxies put as much emphasis on exploration and gave you as much freedom to get the stars in the order you wanted. I would like to see another Mario game that does.

I'm a bit confused by what you mean about Sunshine not giving you the freedom to get the stars in the order you wanted. With SM64, you couldn't just load the level up and get any of the six stars. Sometimes you actually had to load that star up to get "that" version of the level. Sometimes other stars were actually present in there as well, but not always. Sunshine was the same. Sometimes you had to select the star in question upon entering the stage, other times you could go off the beaten track and find a different one. Neither game was like Banjo-Kazooie, where all ten jiggies are in the level from the get go, and the order you get them is largely up to you. You could also argue that, due to the blue coins, Sunshine encouraged more exploration than its predecessor.

IAmTheSaladMan wrote:The structure of Sunshine was almost identical to 64 the game was just harder.

Thanks guys, you've done my job for me. :wub:

Last edited by Herdanos on Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Generating Real Conversations About Digital Entertainment
User avatar
Frank
Member
Joined in 2009

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Frank » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:25 pm

If only someone could do your quote tags for you too ;)

Image
User avatar
KomandaHeck
Member
Joined in 2008

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by KomandaHeck » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:39 pm

TimeSplitters 4 - I'm not actually sure I'd want to see this as I can't help but think Crytek would cock it up, but still, seeing another TS game done right would make me very happy.

Lost Odyssey 2 - This doesn't necessarily need to even be a direct sequel, it could work like the Final Fantasy games have. I loved this game and just want to see Mistwalker do something similar (if they are even still an open studio, I don't actually know).

Vanquish 2 - First game was awesome, just make more of it!

User avatar
OrangeRKN
Community Sec.
Joined in 2015
Location: Reading, UK
Contact:

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by OrangeRKN » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:43 pm

How did I forget to say TimeSplitters 4

Have I really given up hope so much

Image
Image
orkn.uk - Top 5 Games of 2023 - SW-6533-2461-3235
User avatar
Preezy
Skeletor
Joined in 2009
Location: SES Herald of Vigilance

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Preezy » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:45 pm

A proper sequel for Nuclear Strike, the classic PS1 helicopter shooter. I don't count Future Cop: LAPD, as that was wank.

I frigging LOVED nuclear strike, played it to death :wub:

User avatar
KomandaHeck
Member
Joined in 2008

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by KomandaHeck » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:50 pm

Preezy wrote:A proper sequel for Nuclear Strike, the classic PS1 helicopter shooter. I don't count Future Cop: LAPD, as that was wank.

I frigging LOVED nuclear strike, played it to death :wub:


:|

User avatar
Preezy
Skeletor
Joined in 2009
Location: SES Herald of Vigilance

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Preezy » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:52 pm

Come at me bro

User avatar
Pedz
Twitch Team
Joined in 2009
Contact:

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Pedz » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:11 pm

Dandy Kong wrote:
PunBuck McSquintil Christmas wrote:
gamerforever wrote:I would like a real sequel to super mario 64 - bigger, better etc.

We've had that. If the combined gameplay fun of Sunshine, Galaxy 1 and Galaxy 2 aren't enough for you, then I don't know what to tell you.


Woah there.

I'm not saying anything about the quality of the other games, but 64 is so different from them, gameplay-wise, that you could say that in that sense they're not proper sequels.

None of Sunshine and the Galaxies put as much emphasis on exploration and gave you as much freedom to get the stars in the order you wanted. I would like to see another Mario game that does.


Sunshine does.

Image
User avatar
Herdanos
Go for it, Danmon!
Joined in 2008
AKA: lol don't ask
Location: Bas-Lag

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Herdanos » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:33 pm

Frank wrote:If only someone could do your quote tags for you too ;)

:oops:

Generating Real Conversations About Digital Entertainment
User avatar
Dandy Kong
Member
Joined in 2008
AKA: Dandy Kong

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Dandy Kong » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:37 pm

Nope.

In 64, if you enter a level, you can pretty much get any star in that level you want. With some exceptions, for example the first star in the game is always beating King Bob Omb. Some levels get altered sligthly depending on the star you select when you enter. But these are exceptions, mostly you can, like with Banjo Kazooie, explore the level and find which star you want to get.

In Sunshine, you can only get the star you selected at the beginning of a level - with the exception of some 'hidden stars'.

Go ahead, replay it if you don't believe me.

PunBuck McSquintil Christmas wrote:Thanks guys, you've done my job for me. :wub:


They've done a sloppy job. Because they're wrong.

Image
User avatar
Herdanos
Go for it, Danmon!
Joined in 2008
AKA: lol don't ask
Location: Bas-Lag

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Herdanos » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:41 pm

Dandy Kong wrote:In 64, if you enter a level, you can pretty much get any star in that level you want

Nope.

Dandy Kong wrote:mostly you can, like with Banjo Kazooie, explore the level and find which star you want to get.

Nope.

Dandy Kong wrote:They've done a sloppy job. Because they're wrong.

Nope. :wub:

Generating Real Conversations About Digital Entertainment
User avatar
Moggy
"Special"
Joined in 2008
AKA: Moggy

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Moggy » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:41 pm

Preezy wrote:A proper sequel for Nuclear Strike, the classic PS1 helicopter shooter. I don't count Future Cop: LAPD, as that was wank.

I frigging LOVED nuclear strike, played it to death :wub:


I've already asked for that, but I went with the classic MegaDrive Strike games.

Jungle Strike :wub:

User avatar
Dandy Kong
Member
Joined in 2008
AKA: Dandy Kong

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Dandy Kong » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:51 pm

PunBuck McSquintil Christmas wrote:
Dandy Kong wrote:In 64, if you enter a level, you can pretty much get any star in that level you want

Nope.

Dandy Kong wrote:mostly you can, like with Banjo Kazooie, explore the level and find which star you want to get.

Nope.

Dandy Kong wrote:They've done a sloppy job. Because they're wrong.

Nope. :wub:


You're arguing with me over Super Mario 64, the game I completed with all 120 stars 3 times. And then another time, with 150 stars on the DS version.

Super Mario 64 gives you significantly more freedom over the order in which you can get the stars than Super Mario Sunshine.

If you argue against that, you're more deluded than Cal.

Image
User avatar
Herdanos
Go for it, Danmon!
Joined in 2008
AKA: lol don't ask
Location: Bas-Lag

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Herdanos » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:56 pm

Nope! :lol:

There's freedom in SM64 in the same way that there is/was in Sunshine. They're very, very similar in terms of format, but Sunshine is smaller (and takes place in a different setting, obvs).

Generating Real Conversations About Digital Entertainment
User avatar
Dandy Kong
Member
Joined in 2008
AKA: Dandy Kong

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Dandy Kong » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:13 pm

Okay then. Off with the gloves. Done with the bickering, time for stone cold evidence

After beating King Bob-omb in Bob-omb battlefield, you can get the following stars, regardless of which star you select
- Footrace with Koopa the Quick
- Behind Chain Chomp's Gate
(Other stars require you have activated the red switch)

After beating the Whomp King in Whomp's Fortress, you can get all of the remaining stars

If you enter Cool Cool Mountain for the first time, you can get the following stars:
- Slip Slidin' Away
- Lil' Penguin Lost
- Snowman's Lost His Head

Now you. Give some similar examples for Sunshine

Image
User avatar
Preezy
Skeletor
Joined in 2009
Location: SES Herald of Vigilance

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Preezy » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:13 pm

Moggy wrote:
Preezy wrote:A proper sequel for Nuclear Strike, the classic PS1 helicopter shooter. I don't count Future Cop: LAPD, as that was wank.

I frigging LOVED nuclear strike, played it to death :wub:


I've already asked for that, but I went with the classic MegaDrive Strike games.

Jungle Strike :wub:

Dat Desert Strike :datass:

User avatar
Cumberdanes
Member
Joined in 2011
Location: Sunderland

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Cumberdanes » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:16 pm

There are Shine Sprites all over Delfino Plaza which you are free to get in any order you like.

Image
User avatar
Dandy Kong
Member
Joined in 2008
AKA: Dandy Kong

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Dandy Kong » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:23 pm

That's the hub world. I'm talking about the courses you can get to from the hub.

Image
User avatar
OrangeRKN
Community Sec.
Joined in 2015
Location: Reading, UK
Contact:

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by OrangeRKN » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:26 pm

I think we should all just agree that Banjo-Kazooie does it better than SM64 or Sunshine, so if anything we should want another proper sequel to that

Image
Image
orkn.uk - Top 5 Games of 2023 - SW-6533-2461-3235
User avatar
Herdanos
Go for it, Danmon!
Joined in 2008
AKA: lol don't ask
Location: Bas-Lag

PostRe: jawa asks... unexpected sequels?
by Herdanos » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:38 pm

Dandy Kong wrote:Now you. Give some similar examples for Sunshine


Nope.

Oh go on then, I'll bite.

You've proven my point though. Those are the only examples you can think of because there's not that many of them - most levels on SM64, in order to be completed, have to be selected beforehand. There's no freedom of order like in Banjo - you don't just load the level up and complete objectives as you come across them, a la B-K. You select the world (which is the backdrop to your objective), load a specific scenario and upon completion, the game spits you back out of that world, ready to choose another scenario. Now there are times in Mario 64 - that you've listed - where the scenario that loads also allows for completion of another scenario. The result is the same, though: get the star and the game spits you back out of the painting.

You're stating this as a strength to SM64 over its sequels, because the fact that some of these scenarios allow for different outcomes is apparently an example of a greater 'freedom'. That's not the case! For starters, these situations are exceptions, not the norm - Mario 64 is not as free as Banjo-Kazooie. The order in which you complete the objectives may be branching and up to the player, but the objectives themselves are still linear.

Secondly, how is this a strength when it's clearly evidence that the game is simply re-using the exact same environments but with multiple star locations? Viewed dispassionately, it's a bit of a cheap mechanic. Using the examples you gave: when you load up Snowman's Lost His Head, you're not playing a new level. You're re-playing the same level you beat twice before when you played Slip Slidin' Away and Lil' Penguin Lost.

Nintendo knew this was cheap - they did it to get the game out on time! They didn't do this with Sunshine, with far more of the levels unique and tailored to the scenario. There were still the open-ended objectives that could be done on any level/scenario, though, like the 100-coin challenge; and the Delfino Plaza Shines could be found in a branching order. Sunshine's a smaller game than SM64 - Nintendo knew this, but their padding was different. They introduced Blue Coins, and instead of having the same level advertised multiple times as different Stars, they instead presented them as hidden stars. This would carry through to the Galaxy games, where AFAIK every single level is unique but some have a main star and one or more hidden stars. Plus each world only has a few scenarios, but there's loads more worlds. It's far more inventive - one of the reasons I think it's the stronger game(s) than SM64.

So if your argument is, Super Mario 64 re-uses the same exact levels multiple times, more often than Sunshine does, then I concede that you are correct. There are more situations in Mario 64 where you can enter a world and get multiple stars from that starting point, than there are in Sunshine - you are right. But there aren't many. And that's a good thing, because what you're referring to as freedom isn't.

They're extremely similar games that follow the same format. 64 is set in a big castle with lots of small rooms and corridors, Sunshine in a medium-sized town with some smaller areas off it. 64 has more worlds with fewer stars (some of which can be obtained in identical scenarios), Sunshine has fewer worlds with more shines and probably, on balance, the same number of unique scenarios as SM64 when you take into account hidden shines and blue coins.

I think what you're asking for is a return to the Banjo-formula, but that's not really what SM64 ever was. The levels you allude to as somehow more sandbox than others were only ever so as an attempt to lengthen the game without creating new content. I would rather see more unique environments and fewer re-uses - a template that the Galaxy games followed to its extreme, with fantastic results. But completely going in the other direction, a la Banjo, and having massive environments with multiple collectibles, could also work. So long as the game doesn't reset you every time you complete just one objective - as no matter how you put it, that isn't freedom.

Therefore, having considered all of that:

"Super Mario 64 gives you significantly more freedom over the order in which you can get the stars than Super Mario Sunshine."

I disagree.

They're all cracking games though. :toot:

Generating Real Conversations About Digital Entertainment

Return to “Games”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kriken and 326 guests