KFC's new offensive, misleading and distressing TV commercial...

Lucien wrote:I believe animals are forcefully impregnated, controlled, killed and treated horribly because obviously, they are.

And you continue to eat them.

As explained, I used different words to express the same things you and I both know happen. You... don't believe that all happens? You can't believe that, so instead what you're repeating the "it's not murder or this or that" line.

Are they impregnated (I don't believe it is forcefully in the way you do), controlled and killed? Of course. I don't believe that to be an issue though because they are not human and do not feel things the way humans do.

Treated horribly? Some are, some aren't. Depends on the method of farming, the regulations etc etc. I don't believe in being cruel to them if it is possible to avoid it.

Despite believing all that though, you still eat them.

Ok. You aren't murdering or raping animals. Great.

It's not rape or murder when it comes to animals. And you still eat them.

You're still doing the other terrible things I mentioned above.

I don't believe it is terrible. You do. And you still eat them.

And you're going to keep forcefully impregnating animals, paying people to control them against their instincts, and have them be killed at will for you after I've stopped. Aren't you?

Of course I am, I don't believe it to be "forcefully" impregnating them. I don't believe it is wrong to control them. I don't believe it is wrong to kill them.

Despite believing all that though, you still eat them.

I like how you say "after I've stopped". You feel so strongly about all this, but you can't bring yourself to actually stop eating them until some unspecified date in the future? And you have the gall to try and make out other people are the bad guys whereas you are the virtuous one because you will stop one day?

Lucien wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Aren't you?

I admitted that. But here is Moggy criticising me for doing what he does to a larger extent (and keep in mind I'll be stopping when he won't be). The reason he's doing it is, even though we're describing the exact same things, I used a word he didn't agree with.

I've removed the words as a sticking point. The actions that happen to animals is all that matters here.

For strawberry floats sake...

I am criticising you for preaching ABOUT MEAT EATING BEING WRONG WHEN YOU DO IT .

My other criticising is that you believe it to be wrong but are only slowly cutting it out. If it is as wrong as you say, then why the delay in stopping?

If you were a vegan then you could preach away without being hypocritical about it.

As it stands, you are preaching at us FOR SOMETHING YOU ALSO DO.

Meat is not a strawberry floating drug, you are not addicted, you don't need to take time to cut it out. If you believe it is wrong, then stop.

Lucien wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Aren't you?

I admitted that. But here is Moggy criticising me for doing what he does to a larger extent (and keep in mind I'll be stopping when he won't be). The reason he's doing it is, even though we're describing the exact same things, I used a word he didn't agree with.

I've removed the words as a sticking point. The actions that happen to animals is all that matters here.

But you haven't stopped yet.

So either.
1. Stop
2. Get the strawberry float off your high horse you condescending, deluded, gooseberry fool spouting, holier than thou, arse.

Once you are no long "contributing to the massacre" you can be as much of a militant tosser as you want and I'm sure you will, but the whole time you are eating meat you are no better than anyone else, and as it stands you are so so much worse because you are spouting off like you are some strawberry floating special banana split when you are doing what everyone else is doing WHILST saying it is all so wrong.

Stop with all the abuse. It's making me very upset.

Please can we tone down these insults, they are unnecessary and doing nothing for this thread.

Blue Eyes wrote:Stop with all the abuse. It's making me very upset.

Nothing is aimed at you or even Vegan, veggie peeps, it's Luciens holier than thou stance whilst not actually living anything he is saying that is getting flack.

If people want to not eat meat it is cool, hell saying the benefits to health etc. is cool too, but trying to make out like it makes you better than someone who chooses not to agree is wrong, especially if while doing it you are chowing down on a nice bit of cow.

Cuttooth wrote:Please can we tone down these insults, they are unnecessary and doing nothing for this thread.

The only insults seem to have been from that banana split Errkal.

Errkal wrote:

Blue Eyes wrote:Stop with all the abuse. It's making me very upset.

Nothing is aimed at you or even Vegan, veggie peeps, it's Luciens holier than thou stance whilst not actually living anything he is saying that is getting flack.

If people want to not eat meat it is cool, hell saying the benefits to health etc. is cool too, but trying to make out like it makes you better than someone who chooses not to agree is wrong, especially if while doing it you are chowing down on a nice bit of cow.

I know but I think it's been way OTT the way you guys have been battering Lucien.

Lucien wrote:If you could kindly stop criticising my diet when yours is worse and isn't going to get any better, that'd be great. Thanks.

People aren't criticising your diet, they're criticising your hypocrisy.

Moggy wrote:

Cuttooth wrote:Please can we tone down these insults, they are unnecessary and doing nothing for this thread.

The only insults seem to have been from that banana split Errkal.

strawberry floating leftie!

Yeah sorry I have gotten a bit carried away, I can't stand high horsery and "I'm better than you" stuff, it's what drives me nuts about so many of the vegans I have met, it's like OK you don't meat cool you go for it, but leave me to do what I want, but when someone is doing all that like they are the king of the vegans whilst eating meat it really really narks me right off.

Lucien wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:People aren't criticising your diet, they're criticising your hypocrisy.

Initially that was the case; I said at the very beginning you can criticise a meat advert and eat meat. There's no disputing that. In fact my first post in this thread explicitly said I ate meat.

Yes but you're criticising people for supporting an industry that you disagree with, yet continue to support yourself. The extent of that support doesn't matter if you truly believe it to be as terrible as you say.

That's the problem people are having with your posts

This advert has totally worked. I think I kind of like it now. It's got some balls.

Lucien wrote:Ok Moggy I've removed all the "You still eat them digs", like I'm not aware.

We are all aware that you are holier than thou and yet still eat animals.

This is pretty astounding stuff, really.

It’s not as astounding as somebody that thinks chickens get raped, but continues to eat chicken.

First you attacked me for my diet

No I didn’t. I criticised you for acting holier than thou WHILE STILL EATING MEAT YOURSELF.

(I never attacked anyone's - how could I? - I'm only responding to your criticisms and in turn, am going to criticise you)

You have spent pages telling everybody how the meat industry is terrible, how suffering is terrible, how chickens are raped and all sort of other things. But sure, you haven’t attacked anybody….

and then you somehow come out with the idea that even though we both know what goes on... and I'm cutting it and you're not... you're better than me!

That’s utter drivel. I have zero problems with you eating meat. The problem is you are acting like a sanctimonious arse WHILE STILL EATING MEAT YOURSELF.

Look at what you put above: You don't care about forced impregnation because they're only animals, you're going to keep doing that, you're fine with killing them, and controlling them. Basically, your not giving a strawberry float is better than my slightly giving a strawberry float because I'm not as good as I could be. Great.

You make it sound like you think you are a hero. Despite being as “guilty” as me. Oh no wait, you try, you just are not as good as you good be.

Just stop eating meat and then you can preach. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.

So why are you so obsessed with my diet?

I couldn’t give a monkeys arse what you eat.

You are sanctimoniously preaching about the evils of meat eating, while eating meat. That’s what everyone is trying to tell you.

This all goes back to you not liking that I criticised a meat advert because I eat meat. Never once did I say it was wrong to eat meat, I only pointed out the horrible things we do to them and that's why I found the ad distasteful -- my diet was only brought up because someone asked about it -- and going waaaay back to that point. You can eat meat and criticise an advertisement for KFC.

Have you actually read any of your posts? Do you realise how you actually sound?

If you could kindly stop criticising my diet when yours is worse and isn't going to get any better, that'd be great. Thanks.

Mine isn’t worse, we both eat meat. When you cut out the meat, then you can judge the rest of us (and oh strawberry float me aren’t you going to judge).

Lucien wrote: The only reason I'm criticising Moggy is because he keeps wanting to show how superior he is.

What? Where have I done that?

Some of your early posts (way before we started arguing):

Lucien wrote:The advert is obviously disgusting, but knuckle draggers will love it so in that sense I suppose it will get more people into KFC.

Lucien wrote:It's an (exploited) dancing chicken advertising an establishment that slaughters exploited chickens (in awful conditions). You'd literally have to be either a child or irredeemably dense to find it funny or acceptable.

Tell me more how it is other people that want to show how they are superior?

There's no point in trying to reason with people who refuse to accept that others have a different opinion to their own.

Lucien wrote:but your situation is certainly not better than mine.

That's not true on a number of levels.

1. I don't have an issue with my "situation". You have an issue with yours.

2. I never said I was better than you. I said you were a hypocrite. And you are.

3. I am not trying to stop eating meat, you are and seem to be struggling to stop.

4. I am not trying to convince people that their dietary choices are wrong, you are (despite making the same dietary choices).

5. I am not acting holier than thou about what people eat, you are.

I am happy to be done with this though.

Welcome to page 10 everyone.

Ironhide wrote:There's no point in trying to reason with people who refuse to accept that others have a different opinion to their own.

Well that's not true, but I don't see the benefit of explaining why to you.

Better to have double standards than no standards at all, innit. Good on you, Luce!

Lucien wrote:Sentience isn't enough because?

Sentience is a pretty low bar. For me, an animal being to some extent sentient doesn't give it a lot of intrinsic value. I think the value added to my life when I have a meal I really enjoy exceeds or equals the value removed from the world by killing an animal.

I recognise that sentient beings feel pain and I don't want animals to be tortured. My broad belief is that in the EU livestock welfare is a lot better than elsewhere and that livestock, in general, aren't tortured here. They may well feel quite uncomfortable sometimes but iterating on livestock welfare legislation requires a government initiative and I don't see it as my responsibility as a consumer. I am sure I own electronic products that are made by children or clothes that are made by slaves, and I hope those situations are corrected, but meaningful change will come via governments and NGOs and lawyers, not through me being sanctimonious about iPhone owners.

Lucien wrote:Ok Moggy I've removed all the "You still eat them digs", like I'm not aware... If you could kindly stop criticising my diet when yours is worse and isn't going to get any better, that'd be great. Thanks.

You still don't get it, do you? Which of these situations says worse things about a person's moral character:
1. They judge eating meat to be morally OK, and then do it.
2. They judge eating meat to be the same as 'murder', 'rape', and 'kidnapping', but do it anyway.
We don't believe eating meat is wrong. I don't view killing an animal as an immoral act. Do you? If you think killing animals is immoral then you should stop wasting time and go vegan already.

Lucien wrote:that's separate from the issue of the advert

The issue with the advert is 'it portrays chickens as happy, when they are actually sometimes uncomfortable'. I think this thread has identified two potential reasons to find this offensive:
1. Portraying a human as happy when he is actually 'oppressed' would be an offence to that person's dignity, so by analogy the same is true for a chicken.
2. It might trick people into thinking livestock welfare is better than it actually is.
I think (1) is ridiculous. Chickens aren't human and don't have the concept of the value of liberty so they cannot feel oppressed. They don't understand the irony in their being portrayed as happy and they can't take offence to things. I think (2) has somewhat more merit, but ultimately I would question whether the advert is actually making a serious and credible claim about chicken quality of life. Maybe I am giving the average viewer too much credit but I don't think it will impact how anyone views animal welfare issues ("I was thinking about going vegetarian but then that KFC advert showed the chicken so happy!"... I don't think so!).