KFC's new offensive, misleading and distressing TV commercial...

BID0 wrote:

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:

BID0 wrote:

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:What would I put on my Shredded Wheat if not glorious milk? What would I put in long coffee?!

milk. alcohol.

Milk instead of milk?

You can put whatever you want on your cereal. Although milk and Shredded Wheat seems a bit boring. Don't you put fruit or sugar on it?!

I'd put fruit on it if I could be arsed, but it would still involve a lot of milk.

Putting sugar on cereal is something done by irresponsible adults with childish taste buds .

Pancake wrote:I still haven't seen a single decent attempt in this thread to argue that eating meat and dairy is beneficial. It tastes good, animals are not sapient and it's not up to the consumer to legislate against poor conditions; I agree with all of them but it does not make eating meat beneficial.

It's amazing to me how few people are willing to acknowledge this. The counter argument is seemingly 'I don't care what you eat', which is fine. I don't care what you smoke, doesn't make it beneficial to anyone or anything.

Why should I have to eat an optimal diet? I get one shot at experiencing good tastes on this Earth, so I want to eat and drink lots of enjoyable things while I'm here.

Anyway, of course meat can form part of a healthy, balanced diet when eaten in moderate quantities. Meats can be a decent source of protein and some other nutrients like iron and vitamin B12. They're not the only way to get those nutrients but they're an OK way to do so. You can say "Oh, why eat x when you can get the same nutrients from y and z" for any food x. Why eat chickpeas when you can get the same nutrients from kale and spinach?*

* I know nothing about chickpeas, kale, or spinach, so that particular triplet probably doesn't work, but you see what I mean.

I'll fight anyone who tries to stop me drinking at least a pint of milk per day.

Karl wrote:

Pancake wrote:I still haven't seen a single decent attempt in this thread to argue that eating meat and dairy is beneficial. It tastes good, animals are not sapient and it's not up to the consumer to legislate against poor conditions; I agree with all of them but it does not make eating meat beneficial.

It's amazing to me how few people are willing to acknowledge this. The counter argument is seemingly 'I don't care what you eat', which is fine. I don't care what you smoke, doesn't make it beneficial to anyone or anything.

Why should I have to eat an optimal diet? I get one shot at experiencing good tastes on this Earth, so I want to eat and drink lots of enjoyable things while I'm here.

Anyway, of course meat can form part of a healthy, balanced diet when eaten in moderate quantities. Meats can be a decent source of protein and some other nutrients like iron and vitamin B12. They're not the only way to get those nutrients but they're an OK way to do so. You can say "Oh, why eat x when you can get the same nutrients from y and z" for any food x. Why eat chickpeas when you can get the same nutrients from kale and spinach?*

We should fundamentally be aware of the impacts our choices as a society make on the environment, both immediate ones and ones that won't be felt until later in the future. To wilfully ignore such impacts I feel is selfish and simply not good for anyone in the long term.

I think it's important for everyone to understand what healthy levels of various types of meats in a diet looks like, and to be encouraged to consider how much more than that healthy level they consume, as well as the impacts on farming welfare from that subsequent demand creates.

I really don't understand what is objectionable to that.

Karl wrote:I like animals and I would eat any species that isn't endangered. I like horses and I ate horse last week. I don't think I'm crazy. You're just repeating "no you actually don't like them" -- what do you expect from this? Is it for me to change my thoughts & feelings?

If I caught and "humanely" killed and ate a stray cat, I don't think most people would believe me if I told them I loved cats. Why is it different when somebody else kills it for you? Genuinely curious.

And yes, usually the point of debate is to be open to changing your opinion, or at least to try and look at things from a different point of view. The fact that you can't even see where I'm coming from is a little puzzling considering how intellifently you present yourself. If you're not responding with one of those two things in mind there's not really much point is there?

The very reason I am vegetarian is because I debated with my vegan friend over the years.

Lucien wrote:

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:What would I put on my Shredded Wheat if not glorious milk? What would I put in long coffee?!

Lots of alternative milks for cereal (I use rice milk). Soya milk is best for coffees, they say: haven't tried it though since I drink green tea.

What if you don't like alternative mills?

Pancake wrote:I still haven't seen a single decent attempt in this thread to argue that eating meat and dairy is beneficial. It tastes good, animals are not sapient and it's not up to the consumer to legislate against poor conditions; I agree with all of them but it does not make eating meat beneficial.

It literally feeds you, the same benefit as all food.

Unless you mean more beneficial than other food, which is an odd way to look at food beyond pure nutritional benefit alone. It is ultimately a zero sum game that results in identifying a handful of food stuffs that would provide, most efficiently, the essential nutrients, and an insistence that those are all anyone should ever need to eat and everything else is amoral waste and hedonism.

Pedz wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:What would I put on my Shredded Wheat if not glorious milk? What would I put in long coffee?!

Lots of alternative milks for cereal (I use rice milk). Soya milk is best for coffees, they say: haven't tried it though since I drink green tea.

What if you don't like alternative mills?

There are hundreds of plants milks these days and more and more hit the shelves each day. Although Rice milk is pretty gross when I tried it recently



I think the argument is that you can get a lot more nutrients from going straight to the source (plants) rather than getting these things indirectly through consuming animal product that ate those nutrients first. No one here is disputing that meat tastes good etc, that's all subjective. But you really can't claim things like "I hate the argument that humans shouldn't drink milk as since it's primarily for calves it cannot be good for us: it's so easily demonstrably false i don't understand why anyone would make it." and not be able to back it up. Sure you can get some calcium or vitamins but they are available in thousands of every day foods too (and without things like saturated fats and animal hormones etc), so you're getting some of the positives of plants but with the draw backs of consuming animal product, the only positive over plant based food being taste - which I would hope people here could recognise.

We have kind of gone so far from the original point that angry vegan person was trying to make, which was that milk is only produced by a mother X amount of time after having a child to help that child grow quickly in the early part of its life. After that point, the child doesn't need that same growth spurt anymore and can fend for itself/eat its natural diet.

I am guessing when Moggy says "Digesting plants is far slower than meat, it was essential for human development." is talking about how our primitive brains developed quickly historically (which I have no knowledge on really), rather than how our bodies actually digest food today, where plant foods have a far quicker transmit time through our body versus meat and dairy thanks to fiber sources which can only be found in plant based food.

Lucien wrote:With coffee, well, some correct people have it black.

Fade wrote:

Karl wrote:I like animals and I would eat any species that isn't endangered. I like horses and I ate horse last week. I don't think I'm crazy. You're just repeating "no you actually don't like them" -- what do you expect from this? Is it for me to change my thoughts & feelings?

If I caught and "humanely" killed and ate a stray cat, I don't think most people would believe me if I told them I loved cats. Why is it different when somebody else kills it for you? Genuinely curious.

Well, you deliberately picked a meat that is not generally considered part of western cuisine, but objectively there's little to no reason why we can't be said to like animals and also eat them. If we look at any of the animals that do frequently appear in the overlap between the animals we usually keep as pets and those we keep as food (rabbits, fish, horse etc) then I don't see any real conflict.

Someone does not somehow hate rabbits because they had a rabbit stew.

Christ, vegetarians are tedious. Nobody cares about your eating habits, nobody is impressed. I swear they have to drop it in to conversation along with how they have the new iPhone and how far they've been on their racing bike in a week.

Shut up.

Gotten to

Alvin Flummux wrote:Long coffee... is that like long pork?

Now there's the logic of a truly equal-opportunity meat eater.

Knoyleo wrote:

Pancake wrote:I still haven't seen a single decent attempt in this thread to argue that eating meat and dairy is beneficial. It tastes good, animals are not sapient and it's not up to the consumer to legislate against poor conditions; I agree with all of them but it does not make eating meat beneficial.

It literally feeds you, the same benefit as all food.

Unless you mean more beneficial than other food, which is an odd way to look at food beyond pure nutritional benefit alone. It is ultimately a zero sum game that results in identifying a handful of food stuffs that would provide, most efficiently, the essential nutrients, and an insistence that those are all anyone should ever need to eat and everything else is amoral waste and hedonism.

There's more to it than the nutritional benefits/negatives.

There are other benefits to choosing a vegan diet, e.g. environmental.

Are there any benefits to eating meat other than that it tastes good?

It goes back to my earlier point: you can defend your right to eat meat and point out that eating meat is not inherently wrong but it's difficult to make a case that eating meat is the right thing to do.

I don't have a problem accepting that vegans have made the superior dietary choice. It's not surprising that some of them get a little sanctimonious.

Pancake wrote:It goes back to my earlier point: you can defend your right to eat meat and point out that eating meat is not inherently wrong but it's difficult to make a case that eating meat is the right thing to do.

However, if you accept that eating meat is not inherently wrong then there's no need to make the case that eating it is right thing to do any more than I'd need to make the case that any other food stuff is 'right'.

I don't grasp what is inherently wrong about eating meat. There are environmental and social issues linked to eating meat, sure, but there are also environmental and social issues from having all varieties fruit and veg available all year round.

What's the environmental impact of flying tonnes of exotic plants and veg around the world so that all veg is always available all the time, pesky old-timey concerns like being 'in-season' be damned? What's the social impact of the child labour used on coffee farms? What's the social impact on starving subsistence farmers who're no longer able to feed themselves because the international market for Quinoa has priced them out of their own market?

Unless you grow all your food out of your own personal allotment (ground which could be used for affordable public housing - ah gooseberry fool even that has a social consequence) then every dietary choice we make is a trade off. There's no 'superior' choice.

Pancake wrote:I don't have a problem accepting that vegans have made the superior dietary choice. It's not surprising that some of them get a little sanctimonious.

And this is why you end up with people just answering "mmm bacon". It's almost impossible to do anything else with people who have convinced themselves that they are the superior beings with wonderful morals. And don't they just love to tell everyone else just how superior they are.

Are there any benefits to eating meat other than that it tastes good?

You have been told other benefits but have brushed them aside, despite one of those benefits being the entire point of eating anything. There is nutrition in meat, it nourishes our bodies. That's a pretty damn good reason to eat something.

You can argue that we can get the same nutrition from plants and I would agree with you. But eating something else doesn't stop their being a nutritional benefit to meat.

Is being vegan environmentally sound? It is certainly more environmental than beef, but I am not sure it is when we come to other meats. Is transporting fruit and vegetables (of which a huge amount is due to the seasons) around the world really any more environmental than eating chicken that was born, raised, slaughtered and prepared within 100 miles of you?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a vegetarian or a vegan btw. You get the reactions that you do because of your attitudes towards those that don't believe the same thing as you. Veganism almost sounds like a religion, you believe yourself to be more moral, you preach to gain new converts, you refuse to look at (or completely ignore) anything that doesn't fit in with your worldview. Again, I don't care in the slightest if you avoid meat and animal products, just accept that a lot of us do not agree with you and we are not going to change just because you think you have a "superior dietary choice".

Moggy wrote:

Pancake wrote:I don't have a problem accepting that vegans have made the superior dietary choice. It's not surprising that some of them get a little sanctimonious.

And this is why you end up with people just answering "mmm bacon". It's almost impossible to do anything else with people who have convinced themselves that they are the superior beings with wonderful morals. And don't they just love to tell everyone else just how superior they are.

Are there any benefits to eating meat other than that it tastes good?

You have been told other benefits but have brushed them aside, despite one of those benefits being the entire point of eating anything. There is nutrition in meat, it nourishes our bodies. That's a pretty damn good reason to eat something.

You can argue that we can get the same nutrition from plants and I would agree with you. But eating something else doesn't stop their being a nutritional benefit to meat.

Is being vegan environmentally sound? It is certainly more environmental than beef, but I am not sure it is when we come to other meats. Is transporting fruit and vegetables (of which a huge amount is due to the seasons) around the world really any more environmental than eating chicken that was born, raised, slaughtered and prepared within 100 miles of you?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a vegetarian or a vegan btw. You get the reactions that you do because of your attitudes towards those that don't believe the same thing as you. Veganism almost sounds like a religion, you believe yourself to be more moral, you preach to gain new converts, you refuse to look at (or completely ignore) anything that doesn't fit in with your worldview. Again, I don't care in the slightest if you avoid meat and animal products, just accept that a lot of us do not agree with you and we are not going to change just because you think you have a "superior dietary choice".

I don't have the exact figures but from memory chicken is around 3 times more land, grain, water, energy versus plants. Cattle is something like 5-6 times of plant. Pigs I think are somewhere in between those two.

There are actually a group of vegans who are "raw vegans", so they're the most extreme and often don't class others that don't follow the same strict rules as vegan. They eat locally grown/home grown food, they don't cook any food above a certain temperature, no processed foods etc. In fact it was probably a raw vegan that KjGarly found and quoted which started all of this.

They just sound homeless and embarrassed.

"Oh no, I choose to live like this."

BID0 wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Pancake wrote:I don't have a problem accepting that vegans have made the superior dietary choice. It's not surprising that some of them get a little sanctimonious.

And this is why you end up with people just answering "mmm bacon". It's almost impossible to do anything else with people who have convinced themselves that they are the superior beings with wonderful morals. And don't they just love to tell everyone else just how superior they are.

Are there any benefits to eating meat other than that it tastes good?

You have been told other benefits but have brushed them aside, despite one of those benefits being the entire point of eating anything. There is nutrition in meat, it nourishes our bodies. That's a pretty damn good reason to eat something.

You can argue that we can get the same nutrition from plants and I would agree with you. But eating something else doesn't stop their being a nutritional benefit to meat.

Is being vegan environmentally sound? It is certainly more environmental than beef, but I am not sure it is when we come to other meats. Is transporting fruit and vegetables (of which a huge amount is due to the seasons) around the world really any more environmental than eating chicken that was born, raised, slaughtered and prepared within 100 miles of you?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a vegetarian or a vegan btw. You get the reactions that you do because of your attitudes towards those that don't believe the same thing as you. Veganism almost sounds like a religion, you believe yourself to be more moral, you preach to gain new converts, you refuse to look at (or completely ignore) anything that doesn't fit in with your worldview. Again, I don't care in the slightest if you avoid meat and animal products, just accept that a lot of us do not agree with you and we are not going to change just because you think you have a "superior dietary choice".

I don't have the exact figures but from memory chicken is around 3 times more land, grain, water, energy versus plants. Cattle is something like 5-6 times of plant. Pigs I think are somewhere in between those two.

There are actually a group of vegans who are "raw vegans", so they're the most extreme and often don't class others that don't follow the same strict rules as vegan. They eat locally grown/home grown food, they don't cook any food above a certain temperature, no processed foods etc. In fact it was probably a raw vegan that KjGarly found and quoted which started all of this.

Good on the "raw vegans". Now what about the majority of vegans that have to have their food grown and transported across the world?

Actually there is no need to answer. This is dull beyond words.

Fade wrote:

Karl wrote:I like animals and I would eat any species that isn't endangered. I like horses and I ate horse last week. I don't think I'm crazy. You're just repeating "no you actually don't like them" -- what do you expect from this? Is it for me to change my thoughts & feelings?

If I caught and "humanely" killed and ate a stray cat, I don't think most people would believe me if I told them I loved cats. Why is it different when somebody else kills it for you? Genuinely curious.

If you love cats then you love cats, that would be demonstrated by your enjoyment of spending time with cats. Eating cat meat is irrelevant.

I would personally find it difficult to kill a cat that I had formed a bond with but that's just an emotive response. It doesn't mean there's anything morally wrong with cat meat. I would happily eat cat meat in a restaurant.