Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for doping

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by Mommy Christmas » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:28 am

I don't agree with doping but if it was made legal, imagine the lengths athletes could go to? I admire LA's endeavour, but not the means by which he achieved them. Chances are he wouldn't have succeeded without the drugs though.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by Turboman » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:49 am

Certainly not in that era.
Sad to see it all come down, guess it had too sometime. Lance has made himself look like a right twat

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by captain red dog » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:59 pm

I have read extracts of the report (obviously can't read all of it so quickly) and to be honest I don't see the hard evidence the USADA said they had. It's largely based on witness testimony from convicted and admitted cheats and opinion from experts. The report reads quite subjectively too.

I'm not sure what to make of it. I can see why Armstrong disputes it because there isn't really a smoking gun.

However, it will be interesting to see what UCI decide as it would mean wiping out a decade of results and meaning the Tour is pretty much completely discredited. Presumably he would have been cheating in his most recent Tour which for me draws into question the legitimacy of current testing methods.

EDIT: Reading it more closely, the report is pretty much completely based on witness testimony. The accuse him of trafficking drugs yet he has never been physically caught in possession. Only witnesses saying "yeah I saw him with syringes" etc.

I can't see any actual evidence that proves without doubt he doped. The amount of times the caveat "with or without this corroborating evidence, however, the evidence demonstrates beyond any doubt that Lance Armstrong used EPO..." is ridiculous. That doesn't even make any sense!

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by Eighthours » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:58 pm

captain red dog wrote:I have read extracts of the report (obviously can't read all of it so quickly) and to be honest I don't see the hard evidence the USADA said they had. It's largely based on witness testimony from convicted and admitted cheats and opinion from experts. The report reads quite subjectively too.

I'm not sure what to make of it. I can see why Armstrong disputes it because there isn't really a smoking gun.

However, it will be interesting to see what UCI decide as it would mean wiping out a decade of results and meaning the Tour is pretty much completely discredited. Presumably he would have been cheating in his most recent Tour which for me draws into question the legitimacy of current testing methods.

EDIT: Reading it more closely, the report is pretty much completely based on witness testimony. The accuse him of trafficking drugs yet he has never been physically caught in possession. Only witnesses saying "yeah I saw him with syringes" etc.

I can't see any actual evidence that proves without doubt he doped. The amount of times the caveat "with or without this corroborating evidence, however, the evidence demonstrates beyond any doubt that Lance Armstrong used EPO..." is ridiculous. That doesn't even make any sense!


CRD, you're clutching at straws here.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by SEP » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:59 pm

captain red dog wrote:I can't see any actual evidence that proves without doubt he doped. The amount of times the caveat "with or without this corroborating evidence, however, the evidence demonstrates beyond any doubt that Lance Armstrong used EPO..." is ridiculous. That doesn't even make any sense!


"Now that is scientific fact. There's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact."

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by captain red dog » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:09 pm

Eighthours wrote:
captain red dog wrote:I have read extracts of the report (obviously can't read all of it so quickly) and to be honest I don't see the hard evidence the USADA said they had. It's largely based on witness testimony from convicted and admitted cheats and opinion from experts. The report reads quite subjectively too.

I'm not sure what to make of it. I can see why Armstrong disputes it because there isn't really a smoking gun.

However, it will be interesting to see what UCI decide as it would mean wiping out a decade of results and meaning the Tour is pretty much completely discredited. Presumably he would have been cheating in his most recent Tour which for me draws into question the legitimacy of current testing methods.

EDIT: Reading it more closely, the report is pretty much completely based on witness testimony. The accuse him of trafficking drugs yet he has never been physically caught in possession. Only witnesses saying "yeah I saw him with syringes" etc.

I can't see any actual evidence that proves without doubt he doped. The amount of times the caveat "with or without this corroborating evidence, however, the evidence demonstrates beyond any doubt that Lance Armstrong used EPO..." is ridiculous. That doesn't even make any sense!


CRD, you're clutching at straws here.

Eight, one of the charges was that he trafficked drugs. They have no actual evidence of it, just the testimony of people who have been previously found guilty of lying and cheating. He wasn't stopped by the police, there was no recorded search but y'know some guys said he did it so let's discredit his entire career.

I'm not being funny, but in a 200 page report you would expect something that links him to the charges more that just some guys said he did if. If he gets one more person than the other side to say he didn't do it then is he innocent?

I don't care either way whether he is guilty, but there is a huge culture recently of various reports and investigations making incredibly bold and damaging claims, yet when you really look into it you find there is only hearsay evidence.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by Atreyu » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:38 pm

For mine one of the most damning elements to this story is the involvement of George Hincapie (his statement today is here). I've never met the man, but he's always seemed a straight kind of guy, and has clearly been spoken about with affection by various TV commentators over the years. I don't understand why Hincapie would admit to involvement in this sort of thing if it were untrue.

Nonetheless, CRD, you're right to be sceptical still, in as much as this documentation is in effect the case from the prosecution. The evidence will be tested in court when the hearings of Johan Bruyneel, the team director, and the others who are still contesting their charges, occur. But it looks very bad indeed.

It might be worth noting that people are convicted of crimes all the time without the need for any direct evidence. If convictions depended upon, say, someone actually witnessing X kill Y (as opposed to it being inferred from other evidence that it was beyond reasonable doubt that X killed Y), then there'd be many bad people still on the streets.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by Turboman » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:05 pm

Atreyu wrote:For mine one of the most damning elements to this story is the involvement of George Hincapie (his statement today is here). I've never met the man, but he's always seemed a straight kind of guy, and has clearly been spoken about with affection by various TV commentators over the years. I don't understand why Hincapie would admit to involvement in this sort of thing if it were untrue.

100% agree
Hincapie has been a staple of the tour for years and was one of Lance's right hand men, he seemingly has no reason to testify against lance.

Errkal wrote:It is amasing how people dont seem to be abel to do that.
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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by 8raz » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:41 pm

captain red dog wrote:Eight, one of the charges was that he trafficked drugs. They have no actual evidence of it, just the testimony of people who have been previously found guilty of lying and cheating.

so let me get this straight. we should automatically doubt the testimonies of people who have been found guilty of cheating?

He wasn't stopped by the police, there was no recorded search but y'know some guys said he did it so let's discredit his entire career.

this isn't really what happened at all.

i like how the fact that he wasn't stopped by the police or searched means he didn't cheat. it simply means he didn't get caught. easy when no-one tries.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by captain red dog » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:13 am

8raz wrote:
captain red dog wrote:Eight, one of the charges was that he trafficked drugs. They have no actual evidence of it, just the testimony of people who have been previously found guilty of lying and cheating.

so let me get this straight. we should automatically doubt the testimonies of people who have been found guilty of cheating?

He wasn't stopped by the police, there was no recorded search but y'know some guys said he did it so let's discredit his entire career.

this isn't really what happened at all.

i like how the fact that he wasn't stopped by the police or searched means he didn't cheat. it simply means he didn't get caught. easy when no-one tries.

Surely their testimony is slightly discredited by the fact that they have been caught lying in the past. Have they all been given life bans too or did their confessions buy them a lighter sentence?

Surely if you have never been caught in possession, or caught trafficking then you can't declare someone guilty? I don't think you could prosecute someone of drug trafficking based on witness testimony alone.

My issue isn't that he didn't cheat. Personally I have always suspected Tour riders of cheating after the 97 debacle. My issue is with the lack of any physical evidence and the sole reliance of witness testimony. Given the scale of the operation that is alleged, there should be some material evidence that verifies it.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by TigaSefi » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:31 am

I think the most damning thing is that all the riders that had testified got 6 months bans rather than 2 years ban.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by captain red dog » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:38 am

If they really want to clean up the sport, it has to be life bans all round. For cycling in particular, 6 months is a strawberry floating joke. No wonder they testified.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by Drej » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:19 am

Any cheat in any sport should be banned for life and lose the privilege of earning a living from that sport.

Doping should be legalised to an extent in cycling.. it is clearly part and parcel of the sport, how many legends of the sport have we seen falling?

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by 8raz » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:06 pm

captain red dog wrote:Surely their testimony is slightly discredited by the fact that they have been caught lying in the past. Have they all been given life bans too or did their confessions buy them a lighter sentence?

what the-

no. it doesn't discredit anything. what are you even trying to suggest here? that because they get caught they're intentionally lying to bring armstrong down too? think about how likely this is. really? let's be honest...if you get caught and you have to listen about how terrible you are and lance armstrong making a big deal about how squeaky clean he is, you're going to say "strawberry float that".

Surely if you have never been caught in possession, or caught trafficking then you can't declare someone guilty? I don't think you could prosecute someone of drug trafficking based on witness testimony alone.

yes you can. this is how trials are usually conducted when there is no physical evidence. you get the testimonies from everyone involved and then weigh up the probabilities. i mean, you do understand right, a big part of the trial is that potential physical evidence was tampered with? you're basically saying no-one can be guilty if they dodge the rules well enough.

My issue isn't that he didn't cheat. Personally I have always suspected Tour riders of cheating after the 97 debacle.

well that's it isn't it? are we meant to believe that lance armstrong increased his physical performance to match/outperform known dopers during the elo period? let's be honest, most people have known he's doped for a very long time. it would be remarkable if he hadn't. the reason it's a big deal is because he's so decorated and he used to pride himself on being "clean" simply because he had more sophisticated methods of evasion.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by captain red dog » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:44 pm

8raz, the problem is their testimony has bought them a 6 month ban rather than two years/lifetime. If that was me and the likihood was a 2 year ban then I'd consider giving testimony.

The witness testimony doesn't corroborate any evidence at all. Witness testimony is the only existing evidence. The report continually states that they don't have any material evidence but feel they don't need it.

I disagree, the witnesses have arguably been bought.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by 8raz » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:53 pm

captain red dog wrote:8raz, the problem is their testimony has bought them a 6 month ban rather than two years/lifetime. If that was me and the likihood was a 2 year ban then I'd consider giving testimony.

The witness testimony doesn't corroborate any evidence at all. Witness testimony is the only existing evidence. The report continually states that they don't have any material evidence but feel they don't need it.

I disagree, the witnesses have arguably been bought.

so let me get this straight. you're suggesting that the witnesses have been essentially bribed into fabricating false testimonies against lance armstrong to save their careers?

well. i must ask.

where's the physical evidence?

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by SEP » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:41 pm

captain red dog wrote:I disagree, the witnesses have arguably been bought.


To what end? To discredit the sport? These allegations against Lance Armstrong don't seem to benefit anyone.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by TigaSefi » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:39 pm

World falling apart now. Quit as livestrong chairman and lost his Nike sponsorship deal.

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by Fatal Exception » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:41 pm

Poor chap. He wont have anything but his millions of dollars left. :(

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PostRe: Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles for do
by captain red dog » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:57 pm

Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
captain red dog wrote:I disagree, the witnesses have arguably been bought.


To what end? To discredit the sport? These allegations against Lance Armstrong don't seem to benefit anyone.

Sorry for the late reply, haven't been in this thread over the last few days. The witnesses have benefitted from their testimony by getting an absolute joke of a ban themselves. 6 months for their part in concealing the biggest doping scandal ever in world sport, as well as doping themselves?

That is a scandalous sentence. At the very, very least they should have had the standard 2 year ban reduced from a life ban.


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