The Language-Learning Thread

Ah, crap, I thought I'd put "Sumisu-san no keitai desu"* not "Sumisu-san no hon desu". That's the odd thing about Japanese for Busy People, it gives you vocab for "attorney", "company/office" and "business card" before you even know how to say more useful words like "house" or "cat".


*This makes sense just on it's own then? Without all the "this/that" stuff?

What do you all use to type in hiragana by the way? I have to go and find the symbol I need then copy and paste. That's why I romanised it all.

Parksey wrote:Ah, crap, I thought I'd put "Sumisu-san no keitai desu"* not "Sumisu-san no hon desu". That's the odd thing about Japanese for Busy People, it gives you vocab for "attorney", "company/office" and "business card" before you even know how to say more useful words like "house" or "cat".


*This makes sense just on it's own then? Without all the "this/that" stuff?

What do you all use to type in hiragana by the way? I have to go and find the symbol I need then copy and paste. That's why I romanised it all.

http://www.yesjapan.com/install_japanes ... ws7_vista/

You should be able to read that, just follow that and you'll be fine. You just need the language pack pretty much and you're set to go.

G-Ratasaurus Rex wrote:

Igor wrote:Can we talk about more than just Japanese in here? I'm looking at learning Russian at least to a decent conversational level and massively improving my French. I'll be in Russia for a couple of months next summer, and hopefully I'll be spending a year in France in the next few years. My French used to be at a high A Level standard but has waned recently, and I know absolutely no Russian.

Thoughts? I should begin with Russian, right? I can see similar problems that Parksey is having with the written language - anyone know how difficult is Cyrillic to get to grips with?

I really want to pick up Russian, but not "properly" as such. My gf is Russian so speaks fluently with her mum in Russian (like I should be with Spanish ) so I wanted to pick it up as a little something for her. Once you get your tongue around the sounds, it doesn't seem too difficult. It's similar in a sense to Japanese actually as AFAIK, they don't use the verb "to be" and other things like that. Like, there are genders; masculine, feminine and neuter nouns, but no articles; "a/an" "the" etc.

With regards to Cyrillic, I have my gf's pocket Collins Russian dictionary. It has a chart of all the Cyrillic characters and their sounds in Russian and the most similar sound in English. Just one page, but by using that and just reading randomly picked words in the dictionary, I've managed to learn how to read Cyrillic. I have no idea what the words mean, but I can read Russian, essentially.

As I said, it's not something I'm doing like StayDead is with Japanese. But more just asking for phrases, and then picking up on grammatical similarities and making sense of the sentence structure. Gf's mum says my accent is perfect though. Like, no regional accent tendencies or anything. I could be a Russian newscaster, yet.
It's also funny, cos she re-married to an English man, who knows how to say yes and no in Russian, while living with two Russians who always talk in Russian, and I've picked up loads of little things just from listening to her talking on the phone.

I really like the way it sounds actually. I like the sounds the language has. Except for that weird one, that you use in "we" which is pronounced something like "muhhy".

Yep, I love how it sounds, and the way that it flows. I also like that no matter what you say, you sound like you're angry. A very well reviewed book from Amazon should turn up today, so I can get cracking.

StayDead wrote:

Parksey wrote:Ah, crap, I thought I'd put "Sumisu-san no keitai desu"* not "Sumisu-san no hon desu". That's the odd thing about Japanese for Busy People, it gives you vocab for "attorney", "company/office" and "business card" before you even know how to say more useful words like "house" or "cat".


*This makes sense just on it's own then? Without all the "this/that" stuff?

What do you all use to type in hiragana by the way? I have to go and find the symbol I need then copy and paste. That's why I romanised it all.

http://www.yesjapan.com/install_japanes ... ws7_vista/

You should be able to read that, just follow that and you'll be fine. You just need the language pack pretty much and you're set to go.

はい、わかります!

This makes sense, right?

こんばんわ！

ともうします"三ケ"。わたしわはたちにさいです。よろしくおねがいします。

さよなら！

I am just about to post it as a message to a friend who is also starting to learn (he's hopefully attending the night classes with me).

It should say: Good evening! I am "Mike". I am 23 years old*. Pleased to meet you. Goodbye!"

I realise I shouldn't really use watashi here, but it fills the sentence out and looks more impressive to a Western eye.

EDIT - That "wa" after watashi should be the particle "ha", right? And the same with "konbanwa".

For the sentance particle wa, you actually write it with the hiragana ha. Also, I've never heard tomoushimasu, I assume you're saying your name is Mike.

こんばんは!わたしのなまえはマイクです。わたしはにじゅうさんさいです。よろしくおねがいします。

Sayonara is more for incredibly formal goodbyes (or atleast that's how I learnt it), almost like how we never really say Goodbye in it's pureform unless it really is saying goodbye to someone for the very last time. There are other ways of saying bye, like じゃあね、またね、じゃあまたね。

Which is basically like saying, until the next time we meet, or until tommorow.

It's odd you haven't heard "tomoushimasu" as I'm sure that's from YesJapan, but yeah, it's because another way of saying "I am called". There's probably a nuance that gives it a little extra meaning, but to all extents and purposes it seems to be the same as "watashi no namae wa (____) desu".

Is "namae wa desu ka" a simple way of asking someone's name? Or is "nan no namae wa desu ka" how you do it?

It's probably something I learnt, but completely forgot. I just got so used to saying 僕/私は名前は (boku/watashi) wa namae wa. So yeah, yours is probably correct it's just I have a really bad memory.

EDIT: Somehow my blog got 46 hits yesterday, I have no idea why, but it was a strange suprise.

It was probably just me repeatedly clicking on it after each unit and going: "Nope, I still can't read it".

I may set up a blog to help with my writing and to monitor my progress. At the moment, it will simply say: "I am Mike. This is my umbrella".

Unique hits. ^

I'm hoping either Persona 3 PSP shows up soon so I can continue on my translation journey again, I just picked a JRPG series that I liked and downloaded the ISO, but since I removed Custom Firmware and was going to buy it anyway, it still hasn't arrived so I can't obviously continue.

That and after trying to write this blog, I've finally realised how dull my life actually is which is why I've resorted to writing about shows I like, although I've noticed I'm saying the same stuff a lot of the time. Writing your own sentances is really annoying, it probably gets easier as you get better, but I still can't do it in speech (then again, I've had literally zero speaking practice other than reading out aloud to myself). and I can only do it while writing as I can take as long as I need.

StayDead wrote:Unique hits. ^

I'm hoping either Persona 3 PSP shows up soon so I can continue on my translation journey again, I just picked a JRPG series that I liked and downloaded the ISO, but since I removed Custom Firmware and was going to buy it anyway, it still hasn't arrived so I can't obviously continue.

That and after trying to write this blog, I've finally realised how dull my life actually is which is why I've resorted to writing about shows I like, although I've noticed I'm saying the same stuff a lot of the time. Writing your own sentances is really annoying, it probably gets easier as you get better, but I still can't do it in speech (then again, I've had literally zero speaking practice other than reading out aloud to myself). and I can only do it while writing as I can take as long as I need.

To be honest, when initially writing in another language, I think your sentences are always basic. The first aim is to get your vocab as wide a reach as possible so you can at least know what someone is talking about, so your answers are normally only low-level responses.

If you've only been doing it six months, chances are you're still doing this "branching" out to get as much variation as possible under your belt. Then you'll start giving more complete answers to questions. When someone asks you want you do, you won't just simply say "gakusei", you'd add a bit on.

Or, at least, that's how I remember learning French, which remains the only classroom-learnt language I speak. You'd initially say "j'habite...", then you'd say "j'habite un petite ville q'ui s'appelle Thornaby, qui dans le nord-est d'Angleterre, pres de Middlesbrough" mais loin de Newcastle".

Christ, my French is awful now. I was getting fairly close to basic fluency about five years ago as well.

You can't really make anything sound interesting when you're just using beginner-level stuff.

You can't really make anything sound interesting when you're just using beginner-level stuff.

It's not that at all, it's just the fact my life is actually dull, I don't do anything bar study and play games most of the day.

StayDead wrote:

You can't really make anything sound interesting when you're just using beginner-level stuff.

It's not that at all, it's just the fact my life is actually dull, I don't do anything bar study and play games most of the day.

Oh, so it's not the Japanese language it's YOU.

To be fair, my days currently take a similarly predictable routine. I get up late morning/midday and go to work, I then come in from work and do some Japanese practice until 4am.

It's not all depressing though, as even though it's self-study, it is kinda studying for a future career, perhaps. Plus, I do look forward to my study time and enjoy it while I am working.

I've put more hours and effort into my late night studying than some of my summative Uni essays.

What I do, I don't find dull, but writing about it would be dull as anything to read, I like to think what I have been writing is somewhat interesting, but I definately need to go back through the grammer I'm forgetting as I noticed there's alot I'm not using, so tommorow I think I'll focus on that during the daytime, before I write my next blog in the afternoon/evening.

Even so, writings been a lot of fun, it's just I've been slacking on the other areas a slight bit too much since last week, but that's enough relaxing done, now to get back to the real work, lots to be getting done.

それは明日に頑張だから日本に行きたいです、僕の夢です。寝るに行く、おやすみ！

Ah crap, I have just realised that there is a lot more to the YesJapan lessons than I first thought!

I thought the 13 lessons to Course 1 were all they had up (that's probably why I was surprised you were still going through them!) but there are 5 courses.

Once I've done the last free lesson I will probably sign up for at least a month. I probably won't buy much with the credits, but some of the videos look quite helpful.

Do lessons still get added or is the fifth course the final one? I've also bought George's book "Japanese from Zero" - even though a lot of the stuff is probably repeated from the site, it'll help when I can't get to the laptop, and repeating the exercises should cement it all in my memory.

It will also be a lightweight companion to some of the more intense, grammar-heavy books I've got coming from Amazon.

What's your aim for all this, StayDead? To become fluent? To pass the JLPT?

Parksey wrote:Ah crap, I have just realised that there is a lot more to the YesJapan lessons than I first thought!

I thought the 13 lessons to Course 1 were all they had up (that's probably why I was surprised you were still going through them!) but there are 5 courses.

Once I've done the last free lesson I will probably sign up for at least a month. I probably won't buy much with the credits, but some of the videos look quite helpful.

Do lessons still get added or is the fifth course the final one? I've also bought George's book "Japanese from Zero" - even though a lot of the stuff is probably repeated from the site, it'll help when I can't get to the laptop, and repeating the exercises should cement it all in my memory.

It will also be a lightweight companion to some of the more intense, grammar-heavy books I've got coming from Amazon.

What's your aim for all this, StayDead? To become fluent? To pass the JLPT?

Fluency is my ultimate goal, I'd like to pass all the JLPTs, but I'd rather become fluent first then it'll mean I can fully focus on studying the Kanji for the tests without worrying about anything else. Over the next few years I'm going to sign up to the JET program too, well at least until I get in, as a year where I'm paid by the Japanese Government to live in Japan for a year would almost be a dream come true, also it'd probably be one of the best things that could ever happen to me, as I'm one of those people who generally are not allowed to be happy for more than a day before something happens to slap you in the face again.

So yeah, my main goal is fluency.

I thought fluency meant fluid communication that flows without stuttering or pausing. You could be a fluent speaker of a language with a vocabulary of a thousand words and poor grammar. A four year old might be a fluent speaker, but they're hardly proficient.

I know what you mean though.

A good language learning forum I used to visit when I spent a stint learning German is http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum

I've always taken fluency as having two levels - basic and advanced.

Basic Fluency being where you can read a newspaper or "general" text (like a leaflet, or a set of instructions) and be able to pick out 80-90% of words used. This is a type of "acquired fluency", where you are still very much conscious of using a foreign tongue, but you can do the translations on the fly without pausing and have a wide range of vocabulary. You may not know every word, but you can always put across what you mean and be understood. Likewise, you can have a conversation with anyone, even if occassionally you may have to dig at vague meanings with some questions.

Then there's Advanced Fluency which I take as being able to read a modern novel in that language and not need to look up more than the odd word every few pages. Even then, these words shouldn't stop the meaning of a sentence coming through. You're pretty much "native" at this point and it's not "just" another language you speak. It's highly likely you'll either be living, or have lived, in this country to attain this level.

It's pretty unlikely you could ever teach yourself this Advanced Fluency, as it'll come from years and years of gradual use and contact with the language, but I reckon Basic Fluency is possible if you put the hours in, immerse yourself and study in the right way.

Basic fluency in Japanese and then, later, hopefully Chinese is my goal. I'd like to pass the JLPT and the Mandarin equivalent (is it the HK-something?), as that would polish my CV up nicely.

Igor, is Minimum-Effort still around? He might know something about picking up a bit of Russian. It's a language I've always found interesting due to the cyrillic alphabet and the huge size of the country (and it's influence on most of Eastern Europe and, often, on the West too).

It's a bit low on my language list at the moment though. If I live long enough, I've always fancied being fluent in Japanese, Chinese and Arabic, and improving my existing French and Spanish to match. Next on the list would probably be Russian.

I'll get back to you in about 40 years.

Lot of points, and staydead has covered most of it.　With regards to the other things.

Both of the examples on the last page were fine for asking people to say something one more time. The second one just omits the verb 'to say.'

For the name part, specifically と申します　（ともうします）。It's fine to use, but it needs to be placed after the name. The verb part is　もうします　(it will be under 申す/もうす in a dictionary), and the と is your quoting particle.

It would read 私はマイクと申します　（わたしはマイクともうします）

Similarly you identified the verb 'to say' in the 'one more time' example. It is also fine to use this verb when introducing your/someone else's name, again with the quoting particle と.

こちらは田中さんと言います　（こちらはたなかさんといいます）　（This is Mr Tanaka）

EDIT: My French is exactly the same as yours. The first time I came to Japan a couple of years ago, I flew Air France and spent the majority of the flight happily talking to a French man near the confectionery area at the back of the plane! It's amazing how fast you forget things when you don't use them regularly. I really need to do something about it eventually, because it's over 10 years of study down the drain, if not!

Hi. First of all, appologies if any of this has been said already; I'm away at the moment and haven't had time to properly read the thread. From the gist of it though i gather that that you've decided to go with Japanese? Well, I'd like to spend some time trying to persuade you to go with Chinese instead...

I'm actually in China at the moment. I've just spent a month at a school in southern China learning Mandarin, having already had some experience last year and some self-study (similar to your approach now) in between.

So, why Chinese over Japanese? There's the usual debate about the relative economy sizes - China will overtake Japan very soon and the Japanese economy itself is actually in a very bad state. Many international companies operate on a large scale in China but those in Japan are comparitively small, with most big companies being Japanese themselves.

The amount of foreigners speaking good Chinese is still relatively low and given that the level of English from supposedly able Chinese students is actually not that good, you'll likely to be a valuable commodity to any employer if you mandarin skills are good enough.

Chinese, i believe, is easier than Japanese. Initially this isn't the case: japanese sounds are easier for western tongues, and the Chinese tonal system is difficult to get to grips with. But once you get passed this you'll find Chinese grammar much easier, especially given that Japan's system is perhaps the most complex there is. Also, reading Chinese - believe it or not - is easier than Japanese. Japanese kanji, as you probably know by now, have a variety of readings for each character making it extremely difficult to look up unfamiliar words. Most Chinese characters only have one reading. Also, to read a japanese newspaper you need to know around 2000 characters, for a Chinese newspaper it's 3000 - not that much more (well...) and a lot less complicated.

Another thing is cost. Despite what some of the weabos on this forum might tell you, learning a language through books does not suffice - especially for a biginners. You need to spend time getting to grips with the sounds by practising them and receiving some form of feedback. Studying in China can be done very cheaply if you stay out of big cities and schools designer for rich American MBA students, I paid 120 pound a week here for 4 hours of 1-on-1 lessons a day, accommodation and 2 meals a day, and i'm sure it can be done cheaper. I highly doubt the same can be said for Japan.

This might sound like i have something against Japanese and people learning it but it's not. It's just that from a career perspective i think you need to overlook any cultural preferences you have towards Japan and think what's best for you. You're an intelligent guy (Cambridge, right?) so I'm sure you could pick up either language but unless you really think you'll be a lot more committed to learning japanese over chinese, you should go with the latter. China is a very interesting place anyway and you might discover a whole load of things about it's culture that interest you; arguably it's recent history is a lot more interesting than Japan's (I recommend reading Wild Swans to find out more) and the country's future will probably play a majort part in world events this century. So, yeah, have a think about it some more and if you really prefer Japanese then fair enough, but I still think Chinese is the better way to go.

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