ME3; Story Discussion *New ending content announced pg37*

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by TheTurnipKing » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:16 am

Meep wrote:There are a couple of better reasons for the reapers doing what they do that I could think of right off the top of my head.

1. To make room for new species, as every cycle is different and so adds something new to the reapers when they are uplifted. For example, we know that the prophean civilisation was completely different from the current one. This sort of makes sense because what do synthetic lifeforms lack but organics have in abundance? Evolution. If they purge the galaxy every time they get a re-run of evolution and can steal those new innovations in order to improve themselves. Hence the reapers area a 'dead' civilisation living off the creativity of younger ones.

Actually, we've created some successful software via evolution. The nature of life being organic or synthetic shouldn't matter to the Reapers at all so long as they can create new Reapers. And if the Reapers are right about organic life being a lucky random mutation, then it seems unlikely that synthetic lifeforms would ever truly be successful in completely extinguishing it anyway unless they get crazy about extinguishing every biological life. (an act which is liable to leave the synthetics in question with a universe which is just as inhabitable for them as for us, since any sufficiently advanced synthetic is likely to be nearly indistinguishable from organic life).

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Fargo » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:21 am



This is interesting!

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Tafdolphin » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:30 am

Apparently, according to the "Last Hours of ME3" iPad app, they fully intended Shep to be Indoctrinated by the end, and the player would have to fight it. They took it out when the gameplay mechanics weren't working, but left in a lot of the lead up. So yeah, as much as the endings were a disappointment, they weren't a dream.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Mafro » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:34 am

Bought that the other day but haven't read it all yet. A planned boss fight with a Reaper-transformed Illusive Man was planned, one of the reasons being it was "too videogamey" :roll:

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Tafdolphin » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:36 am

Mafro wrote:Bought that the other day but haven't read it all yet. A planned boss fight with a Reaper-transformed Illusive Man was planned, one of the reasons being it was "too videogamey" :roll:


Actually glad they left that out. TIM was never a physical foe but an intellectual one. Out doing him at his own game felt right and was one of the highlights of the ending for me.

I tried, Shepard.


:(

One of the most interesting things I heard was that there was a planned Harbinger/Joker fight. This would explain where Harbinger is going after lasering Shep and why Joker is beating a hasty retreat through a Mass Relay at the end.

There was also supposed to be a cutscene just after Shep wakes up that would have shown the corpses of your 2 squadmates (which would have been strawberry floating crushing on my runthrough as I chose my beau Liara and BFF Garrus). Instead, they somehow teleport to the Normandy.

That's what annoyed me most about the ending. Not that it was grim or short, but that it was sloppy.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by TheTurnipKing » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:07 am

Tafdolphin wrote:Apparently, according to the "Last Hours of ME3" iPad app, they fully intended Shep to be Indoctrinated by the end, and the player would have to fight it. They took it out when the gameplay mechanics weren't working, but left in a lot of the lead up. So yeah, as much as the endings were a disappointment, they weren't a dream.

Which is exactly what they'd say if they were indoctrinating players.

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We knew that something wasn't right with that ending. They may not be expressing it coherently, but the players know.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Codename 47 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:53 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
Mafro wrote:Bought that the other day but haven't read it all yet. A planned boss fight with a Reaper-transformed Illusive Man was planned, one of the reasons being it was "too videogamey" :roll:


Actually glad they left that out. TIM was never a physical foe but an intellectual one. Out doing him at his own game felt right and was one of the highlights of the ending for me.

I tried, Shepard.


:(


That's what annoyed me most about the ending. Not that it was grim or short, but that it was sloppy.


I agree with pretty much everything you said Taf, but you summed things up perfectly with that last line - I don't care that is was grim or wasn't a happy ending, what's annoyed me is how sloppy and full of plotholes it is. And this is the ending to the last game in the trilogy...there really is no excuse for coming out with an ending riddled with so many inaccuracies and plotholes.

It would've taken a lot of balls...but I honestly think Bioware maybe should've gone with the whole 'squadmates got killed as well' bit as well. Certainly would've been pretty emotional seeing the dead bodies of your squad mates (especially as most people take their favorites with them on missions.) To be honest...I actually thought this is what happened when I first experienced the ending - I thought Harbinger had literally taken out everyone. I can't think of the reason for cutting the Harbinger/Normandy fight though. The biggest fight in the series....and we barely saw the Normandy in action at all. As for Harbinger, i still can't understand why he made no appearances until the end.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by TheTurnipKing » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:01 pm

Codename 47 wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Mafro wrote:Bought that the other day but haven't read it all yet. A planned boss fight with a Reaper-transformed Illusive Man was planned, one of the reasons being it was "too videogamey" :roll:


Actually glad they left that out. TIM was never a physical foe but an intellectual one. Out doing him at his own game felt right and was one of the highlights of the ending for me.

I tried, Shepard.


:(


That's what annoyed me most about the ending. Not that it was grim or short, but that it was sloppy.


I agree with pretty much everything you said Taf, but you summed things up perfectly with that last line - I don't care that is was grim or wasn't a happy ending, what's annoyed me is how sloppy and full of plotholes it is. And this is the ending to the last game in the trilogy...there really is no excuse for coming out with an ending riddled with so many inaccuracies and plotholes.

It would've taken a lot of balls...but I honestly think Bioware maybe should've gone with the whole 'squadmates got killed as well' bit as well. Certainly would've been pretty emotional seeing the dead bodies of your squad mates (especially as most people take their favorites with them on missions.) To be honest...I actually thought this is what happened when I first experienced the ending - I thought Harbinger had literally taken out everyone. I can't think of the reason for cutting the Harbinger/Normandy fight though. The biggest fight in the series....and we barely saw the Normandy in action at all. As for Harbinger, i still can't understand why he made no appearances until the end.

The only conclusion that makes any sense to me (especially in light of the indoctrination theory) is that they wanted to sell the "true" ending as DLC.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Tafdolphin » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:57 pm

Codename 47 wrote:
It would've taken a lot of balls...but I honestly think Bioware maybe should've gone with the whole 'squadmates got killed as well' bit as well. Certainly would've been pretty emotional seeing the dead bodies of your squad mates (especially as most people take their favorites with them on missions.) To be honest...I actually thought this is what happened when I first experienced the ending - I thought Harbinger had literally taken out everyone. I can't think of the reason for cutting the Harbinger/Normandy fight though. The biggest fight in the series....and we barely saw the Normandy in action at all. As for Harbinger, i still can't understand why he made no appearances until the end.


Definitely. Who are you going to take with you on your last mission? Your favourite squaddies. When the whole "crawl to the beam" thing happened I didn't even notice Marauder Shields (for that is his name) appearing as I was too pre-occupied worrying about Liara and Garrus and remembering my "We'll storm Heaven together." convo with the latter. To have a cut-scene of Shep finding their dead bodies would have been an emotional peak and would really have placed you squarely in Shepard's boots: you chose them for this mission, you are responsible for their deaths. It would have made to want to finish the Reapers off so, so much.

Then again, to have something so emotional followed by the Star Child room...maybe it's best they left it out.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Hexx » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:58 pm

I think we might have to accept the ending we got is the ending we got.

I don't think they'd ever "change" if with DLC. Partly because it would set a horribly precedent, and partly because I just don't think they can. (Although Broken Steel did it with a full xpac I believe?)

And if they did - how would they release it? If they make it paid DLC would anyone buy it? Or would there be greater backlash?

Are they really going to do such a massive change for "free DLC" (do MS/Origin limit how much DLC, paid or free, you can do?)

To be the ending people want, aren't they need to get a fair bit of the voice cast back? (Even just a core few would be tricky!)

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Tafdolphin » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:59 pm

Anung wrote:If they do a DLC ending I'll probably just watch it on the internet. They ain't getting any more of my money.



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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Meep » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:00 pm

I doubt it, if they release ending dlc that is not free for new copies then there will be a huge backlash, probably worse than the reaction to the orginal ending. It would be the PR disaster of the year.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Tafdolphin » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:00 pm

Hexx wrote:I think we might have to accept the ending we got is the ending we got.

I don't think they'd ever "change" if with DLC. Partly because it would set a horribly precedent, and partly because I just don't think they can. (Although Broken Steel did it with a full xpac I believe?)

And if they did - how would they release it? If they make it paid DLC would anyone buy it? Or would there be greater backlash?

Are they really going to do such a massive change for "free DLC" (do MS/Origin limit how much DLC, paid or free, you can do?)

To be the ending people want, aren't they need to get a fair bit of the voice cast back? (Even just a core few would be tricky!)


As I just posted in the other thread:

Tafdolphin wrote:Personally, I'm hoping they don't change the ending. Add to it sure, maybe put back the Joker/Harbinger fight and explain why the Normandy was speeding away from earth at the end, but don't change it. It's over, it's done. It's shitty yes, but it's the vision the creators of this universe had for it.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Meep » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:03 pm

but it's the vision the creators of this universe had for it.

But it's not, we've been through this, the writer in the first two games had something completely different planned.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Tafdolphin » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:07 pm

Meep wrote:
but it's the vision the creators of this universe had for it.

But it's not, we've been through this, the writer in the first two games had something completely different planned.


After doing a bit of looking into this, it turns out the Dark Energy storyline was just one of many endings discussed and Karpyshyn has since said the ending as presented was the one he had envisioned from the start. Also, he was the co-writer of Mass Effect 1 alongside the guy who lead the story on 2 and 3. Who knows if he's been told to bullshit though, he does still work for BioWare.

Oh, and then there's this:

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1027650/ma ... oware.html

Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike Gamble.

In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's plot, including a negative ending in which the Reapers win.

Gamble simply said , "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he said, "Yes".

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Tafdolphin » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:09 pm

So, a dude posted this on somethingawful. Worth a read as it gooseberry fools so thoroughly on what we ended up getting:

Okay so strawberry float this ending (again) because I went the "Editing Therapy" way and I thought: well, if people are asking for an ending DLC, why not go all the way and do a "Mass Effect 3 - Director's Cut" DLC or whatever that deals with the WHOLE game? This would make people more inclined to buy it (thus affording all those sweet "production values"), though Collector's Edition owners should get this for free.

Bear in mind that this is most likely a lot of crap but hey if it makes you feel better is worth it right , also I HAVE NOT READ ANYTHING ELSE OF THE UNIVERSE, so this is an entirely in-game thing.

This also is going to be as LONG AS gooseberry fool so be forewarned.

So you cleaned the dust from your shoulders, did what you had to do and you are ready to bring the fight to Earth. The Citadel does not become hell for some random reason (it is still a necessary component for the Crucible) instead there is a huge fight going on there with the defence forces you have mustered. Interaction with TIM remains the same, but with TIM not knowing how to control the Reapers (there is no big platform of decisions here) but rambling completely about it - due to indoctrination. Anderson is out, never making into the beam but falling back and having some communication with the player. Instead of spacekid, a massive hologram of Harbinger talks with you. Here is how it rolls:

A) MINIMUM WAR ASSETS (Bad-plus outcome):

Landing on Earth is HELL. Massive casualties, the "fleets" are a little more than a space rag-tag bunch of misfits and they get torn apart, shuttle destroyed, Normandy takes some damage. Without having not even close to enough forces to fight this, the fleet with the Crucible receives a fuckton of damage and the device itself is damaged - implications unknown. Shepard has to do the largest part of the fighting on land since there is so little additional manpower to spare. Eventually, the Commander arrives on the beam, and enters the Citadel seeing a lot of destruction. After dealing with TIM, Shepard activates the device, it fires, and knocks down only a bunch of reapers. Harbinger tells the Commander that his efforts were ultimately useless as the Normandy takes several beam hits, scene goes dark. Epilogue showing the different falls of the spacefaring races as well as the end of the characters. Post-credits, a VI (or EDI somehow) is then shown speaking on the background, telling the story to some unknown aliens, projecting images from Liara's black box. She ends with a "this time, we shall be ready" - aliens nod in agreement.

B) MODERATE/ADEQUATE WAR ASSETS:

Fleets are strong enough provide some support during approach, distracting reapers as the shuttle lands. The Crucible arrives unscathed, but had to be rushed for the assault and Hackett mentions that he doesn't know if it is going to be fully effective - or what it fully does, even. Special squadrons provide a lot of help for Shepard, distracting and flanking enemy reapers. As the situation in the citadel is solved, a dialog with Harbinger can be iniated, where you can ask about different topics: a lot of dismissal is to be expected, but some interesting tidbits of Reaper lore are revealed to help enlighten the mystery - but not all of it.

B1) (Bad outcome): Harbinger mocks the efforts of the galactic union, but admits that this is a very interesting cycle and offers an armistice if Shepard decides to merge with them: by doing so, leaves galactic civilization damaged, but with the entire technology and infrastructure intact it is fully recoverable. If (s)he suffered severe psychological damage, this outcome happens. Reapers GTFO, Shepard is nowhere to be found, some suspect the worst. A memorial service is held, and the characters talk about the situation of the galaxy. Things look promising, but there is a backdrop of tension and uncertainty, even bleakness. After the credits, a slightly weirder Reaper starts to activate in deep space, and Harbinger's voice adresses it and tells to go into the galaxy: but before it leaves, Harbinger gives it a name: Prophet (or some relevant mystical synonym with shepherd).

B2) (Good outcome): If not, Shepard tells to strawberry float off and triggers the Crucible; the massive shockwave of energy destroy several reapers and leave many more weakened, allowing the fleets and land forces to give payback. With plenty of blood, sweat and tears, the reapers are defeated. The rushed Crucible however caused damage in everything with reaper tech, damaging mass relays (making them work erratically) and disabling many, leaving diverse systems stranded; the Citadel suffers the brunt of the destruction due to the massive energy release by an incomplete Crucible, which ends killing Shepard. Search teams are sent all over, and a squadmate finds a N7 dog-tag amongst the charred remains of an armor in the rubble. Troops celebrating on Earth. A memorial service happens afterwards, with every character speaking about the commander and relating the different outcomes that happened in the galaxy afterwards. Plenty of difficulty is at hand, but the outlook is hopeful. A Matriarch Liara is shown after the credits, speaking in Thessia to an Asari about Shepard. Conversation implies that she is Liara's daughter, and if Shepard was Liara's LI...

C) GOOD NUMBER OF WAR ASSETS

Fleets arrive in huge numbers and well equipped, take a shitload of hits, but still are causing the Reapers plenty of damage. The Crucible, for all intents and purposes, appears to be fully operational, with the scientists managing to obtain a good deal of understanding from it. Normandy drops team without a hitch and special squadrons have made plenty of headway for the bulk of ground forces to arrive. Reapers are caught not so prepared as they have imagined. Using different combinations of tactics and resources from different species as well cutting-edge weapon technology, the reapers on ground suffer losses in a manner they never had. Shepard gets into the beam, deals with TIM, proceeds to activate Crucible, and an angry Harbinger interrupts, speaking with an erratic tone that may be intended with false mockery - one could tell that is almost a hint of fear. Conversation options are plentiful, allowing certain insight on what the Reapers are; still shouldn't be enough to trivialize them.

C1) (Renegade Outcome): Harbinger tells Shepard that the destruction of the Reapers will not come without serious costs, since the entire infrastructure of the galaxy depends on their technology. EDI will enter communications and tell Shep that the Crucible may be operated differently than the intended "destroy" option - she discovers that, by analysing the installed Crucible with the research data, Reaper technology can be controlled and harnessed through it. By having Shepard interface with the Crucible and absorbing reaper technology directly into him/her, the Commander learns their inner workings. In order to do so, however, (s)he must have a very strong resolve.

- C1, bad (or "Cerberus outcome"): with a frail mind, Shepard melds with the tech but the experience destroys the commander. The crucible's shockwave causes all Reapers to stand still, motionless: suddenly, they leave into deep space. Harbinger is the only who is disabled, with a curious Hackett looking it from above. Years later, it is shown that mankind has become the most powerful force in the galaxy, using the reaper technology obtained through Shepard to increment itself. Other species were integrated as client states. Epilogue shows a human leader, Shepard's squadmates and LI highly augmented centuries later, both discussing what happened that day and the fates of crewmen and species. LI/main squadmate looks at a window and ask him/herself "Why, though?". Post-credits cuts to an effigy of Shepard, which also shows the engraving of a three-headed dog on it.

- C1, good: Shepard survives, and is full of glowing scars. The commander uses the Crucible to disable Harbinger, "disbanding" the rest of the Reaper fleet. Normandy picks up Shepard, celebrations ensue but there is a feeling of something *not entirely right* with him/her. Crewmates discuss the fate of the galaxy and theirs as well. Epilogue shows humanity leaping ahead in technology beyond all other races, with Shepard as some sort of holy figure.

C2) (Paragon outcome or "The Happy Ending") Shepard triggers the Crucible, sits down, and watches the fireworks. Built properly, it channels all the energy in a focused chain blast that disintegrates the Reapers in the vincinity and disables the ones far away. Reapers defeated. The Relays channel the blast as well, with the entire network suffering some damage and some relays going dark (but not like B2); Citadel is damaged, but nothing catastrophic. Shepard is found by the people in Normandy, Alliance slaps enough medals to cover Shepard's entire uniform, Shep is shown chilling with the crew somewhere after a few months. The crew talks about itself and the future of their species as well of the galaxy. Matriarch Liara post-credits (like B2), but on a higher note.

D) GUDDAMN HIGH NUMBER OF WAR ASSETS: REAPER-FUCKING-SPECIALTY EDITION

Fleets arrive EN MASSE and upgraded with the latest tech possible. Reapers wreck gooseberry fool up, but also take some serious strawberry floating payback in the form of thanix weapons and what have you. Crucible fully ready and operational, with a very good understanding on what it does and explained to Shepard before leaving Normandy. Land forces march upon Earth on crusade, retaking land and beating the crap out of reaper armies. Shepard's approach, supported by all walks of life armed to the teeth, is dramatic but overall easier than all others. Smaller Reaper ships are shown to be blown apart by concentrated firepower every now and then. Shepard enters beam, and a distorted hologram (as if it is damaged) of Harbinger pops out. Harbinger taunts, but for the first time in its history, it knows it is in disadvantage - will entertain most of your questions and the player can learn a lot about Reapers... However, their fundamental reason of being is unknowable (lost to history or whatever). This also brings the most elaborate endings.

D1) Renegade outcome: regardless of mental state, Shepard manages to control the reapers as per C1 (good). Post-credits, however, Shepard is shown pondering about something that isn't quite right, something shown to him during his/her merging. A certain *PLAUSIBLE NEW PLOT HOOK HERE* is presented, but it is a problem for another time, not his/hers anymore.

D2) The Paragon-on-a-horse ending (or good+): Shepard triggers the Crucible, and it seems to do nothing. Couple of seconds later, it triggers some strange type of supernova that obliterates all reapers in the Sol system; indoctrination breaks off even in its advanced stages, while reaper land forces simply shut down and die. All relays to go dark for a while as the energy released by the device goes from relay to relay. Only a few are disintegrated during the process. As the soldiers celebrate and the fleet command ponders how the hell they are going back, the relays activate again with bizarre readings. Rid of "reaper influence" and blocks, they can be studied; Shepard receives a truck full of medals, the team toasts in the Normandy, commander and Garrus drink the whole damn bar and such happy stuff; for the first time in how many years, Shepard can simply sit down and relax; the fate of the characters, species and assorted are discussed and shown; Shep talks about settling down somewhere. Sometime later, new and improved mass relays are being built in galactic cooperation; a golden age seems to be just right ahead. Vigil's theme, credits. Post-credits, Matriarch Liara discusses a problem with others in regarding the *PLAUSIBLE NEW PLOT HOOK HERE*, while looking at the black box she made with the hologram of Shepard. She smiles.

---------------

Holy strawberry float that was large. If you bothered, many thanks for reading. Also, excuse my English, I am not a native anglophone so that might be full of crappy writing.


EDIT: Ha, just found out who voices Harbinger:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0843775/

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"I'm going to have enjoy it, just that little bit more..."

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Zellery » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:14 pm

Most vocal man in thread demanding more from his games, pirates everything.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Irene Demova » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:18 pm

As if the purchase of the game has any bearing on his ability to judge it (arguably it enhances it as the only investment made in the game is time), hell I haven't even played Mass Effect 3 and I can tell you that the ending's an abortion.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Zellery » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:21 pm

Irene Demova wrote:As if the purchase of the game has any bearing on his ability to judge it (arguably it enhances it as the only investment made in the game is time), hell I haven't even played Mass Effect 3 and I can tell you that the ending's an abortion.

I've finished it also. I really didn't have too much of an issue with the ending.

I didn't say he couldn't judge it anyway, I just find it funny that he's complaining about something he paid no money whatsoever for.

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PostRe: Mass Effect 3; Story Discussion featuring Spoilerz.
by Zellery » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:24 pm

Anung wrote:I like my games with logical conclusions and not rubbish.

There was a lot of things that didn't make sense, I'll give you that.

It might be because I heard such a gooseberry fool storm surrounding the ending to begin with that by the time I finally got to it, I was fairly indifferent. It's by no means a great ending that I received, just not as bad as I was expecting.


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